»Why Scientheist's theorys are not correct.«

starbuck,

I do want to give an indepth explanation into my theories, but if I do, I'll end up writing a big book explaining all abt the matrix ! Moreover, I'm busy now and I've got to do lot of work. Now that u r interested in an honest debate, I'll try to post atleast once in a week. I deduced my M2 theories just weeks after seeing Reloaded. I've not fully deduced any M3 theories. The only thing I deduced in M3 is Orange-matrix and Merovingian/Persephone. I'm building a theory on Neo's power based on HazyBO's and your's and my own theories. I dont care whether my theories are correct or not... I only care for the CORRECT theory. I dont make any wild assumptions. I deeply think abt them before I conclude any fact. I've already done these theories and I'm very bored with it, thats why I'm giving u only the theories and not the deduction. But I'll clear everything up one at a time.

To really crack the matrix, u need to keep two things in mind

1. Dont expect that the wachowskys or the matrix.com will plainly explain you all the theories. (like u said expected levels in "lucid dreaming".)

2. Collect all the clues and deduce ur theory, build it on established facts

and... note that M3 is a special case, so u need to understand M2 fully before you can proceed to M3 (so it makes no sense to argue that prophecy was a lie (M2) and prophecy was fulfilled(M3))

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Levels of anomalies :

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Architect : Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority,

What abt the word MINORITY ? Lets say "those" meant previous Ones,then how do u explain the word "minority" ? The architect implies that "those that refused the program" are a GROUP of people (minority). So "those" and "minority" refer to the same GROUP of people and not previous Ones. THAT PROVES THE FACT THAT THERE ARE A GROUP OF ANOMALIES AND NOT JUST ONE
ANOMALY !

Regarding Lucid dreaming, I already told u they (WB,matrix.com etc.) are not going to give u everything so easily. Lucid dreaming is a human attribute. Every body can do it, but only few can have total control over them. Its just like every other human faculty. Say for eg Memory power, every human has it, but few master them to a greater degree (like memorizing 30 numbers in order). Also note that Neo is called an "Integral anomaly" and "SUM of the remainder of an unbalanced equ" (ref arch's quotes). You should be knowing the fact that "integral" means summation in maths. So Neo is an anomaly who exhibits ALL the features of an anomaly. Morpheus exhibits it only to a certain extent. (To be specific, using integration, u can find the sum of the curve between limits. Moreover, unbalanced equations form a region and not a curve (in the graph). I donno how to specifically apply maths to this part, I'd be grateful if anyone could explain it, but my opinion is that the-one is isolated to a particular region of the curve. And one more point...some ppl arguing 1/3=0.333... as an unbalanced equation is meaningless)

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if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster. Neo: This is about Zion.

Okay now that I've proven the fact that there are group of anomalies and not just one, lets proceed to Zion. The anomalies are the problem, they must be not be left UNCHECKED, so Zion is the solution. (read the quote abv). What do u infer here ? Anomalies = problem, so they are QUARANTINED in Zion.

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Zion:

Your clues : (this is how u pick them !)

What is the matrix ? Control

What is control ? "you can smash them to peices when u dont want them"

What is prophecy ? prophecy is a form of control (M2)

Why is Neo in the architect's room ? He is an anomaly and is not "beyond a measure of control"

How is the function of the-one facilitated ? "a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One"

Zion is not the last-human city. War between Zion and machine is fake. why ? Because the architect said that Neo must rebuild the matrix with 23 survivors. The machines are letting Neo rebuild the city. The machines AID them in rebuilding (implied). Is'nt it a bit weird ? Why would a group defeat their enemies and again simply let them regroup ? Its like overthrowing Saddam and letting Chemical Ali to rule ! Why would they simply let their enemies to grow again if they had already defeated them ? Say, if I'm the architect and if I see a real threat from Zion, then I'll destroy it and completely wipe it out (like the machines did in the surface). So Zion is a form of control.

Ok, now regarding the origin of Zion, there are two possibilities

1. It was the last human city, but it became a form of control when the first one chose to join with the source. (I'm not presuming this. The architect gave a choice between extinction of human race and its survival. The-one v1.0 had to choose between 250,000 zionites and 6 billion matrixians. Moreover, Zion was already REBUILT 5 times. It could have only been done if the previous ones had chosen the source door)

2. The machines built Zion purposefully for quarantining.

So the fact that Zion vs machines war is fake is proven. Its only purpose is to drive the one towards the source. ("...was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One").

Regarding the rudimentary script... WB wrote this, but they removed it. Why ? Because Cypher's character should'nt be knowing abt the previous versions of Zion. Thats why they removed it.

Conclusion : Zion is a form of control. Zion's purpose is to quarantine the anomalies (plural). Fake war is to make them believe that Zion is the last-human-city and the-one would hail the destruction of the matrix.

By now, you guys should have realized that there is NO future for humans without the matrix. Consider this,

Quote:

Neo: You won't let it happen. You can't. You need human beings to survive. Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility of the death of every human being on this world.

The architect's quote could be interpreted as "the matrix is your damn problem, not ours. we've got ways to survive (like windmills for power source). But for you humans, the matrix is the only hope. So choose between ur survival or extinction !"

(and I hope with that detailed explanation, you'll change your opinion that I'm basing my theories without any proof and am coming to quick conclusions ! Also I'll come to M3 when we are done with M2)

Explanation for Neo's power in the real-world :

Consider these facts
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1 Architect : "and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human"

2 Neo TOUCHED the source and freed his mind from his body

3 Oracle: The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from.

4 The source controls all the sentinels in the machine world (When Neo struck the deal with Deus-ex-Machina, the sentinels stopped attacking Zion. So it controls all the sentinels. Moreover its simply logical to conclude this fact)
_____________________________

Put all these peices together and u can find the answer ! Now I'll interpret the clues

1 : I'd interpret 1 as "the process of you becoming the one has altered your consciousness, though you have become god-like, you still remain human". Who are gods in the matrix ? Programs ! (Architect,Oracle = Creators, Seraph =angel, Merovingian =Devil etc.). It follows from the story of Hercules, he had to meet a series of challenges to become a God (ie) Neo has powers equal to that of a powerful program.

2 : Neo TOUCHED the source. Thats how he controlled the sentinels.

3 : Power of the one extends beyond this world TO THE MACHINE WORLD. An implied fact is that the one's power reaches to the source. Neo is able to exert his powers in the machine world ("all the way back") and to the source ("where it came from")

4 : The source issues commands to the sentinels. They are not processes as HazyBO suggested, they are simply commands (in technical terms a "remote procedure call")

Source ---> Sentinels

Neo touched the source. This means that Neo used the source against itself. That is, Neo used the source to gain access to the sentinels and disrupt them. Neo was able to exert control to the source to a few extent, but not fully. He issued "commands" to the source and forced the source into executing those commands against its will.

Neo ---> Source ---> Sentinels

This is how Neo destroyed those sentinels in the real world, this is how he prematurely triggered those fleet of tow bombs.
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Okay, have u guys interpreted the orange codes ? Can u tell me why the orange-code-objects are plain and solid and not wireframed like in green-codes ? (ie) In the matrix, Neo sees objects/people made up of string of japanese characters, but the orange codes are plain and solid. Why ? Because there are two matrices...green and orange. The green-matrix (for humans) is a simulation in hyperreal whereas the orange-matrix (for machines) is a simulation in neo-real state (Read Simulacra and Simulations, u'll understand).

Neo-real simulation is "a basic representation of reality". So the machines in the real world are exactly mirrored in the orange-matrix. There is no choice as in the green-matrix.

(And thanks for HazzyBO and StarBuck, I picked up some of the ideas from their theories)

Some of you guys had been asking me for proofs for my theories and some of the theories which ppl present here are completely off the track. People have missed a lot of facts. I'll interpret the architect conversation for you so that u can build your own theories and crack the riddle of the matrix. (I already have cracked it, though I'm still refining it for finer details)

(simple dialogues are skipped, the explanation is in the architect's perspective and some are in narration)

Quote:

Architect: ...and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.

The process of you becoming the one has altered your consciousness. You have become god-like. (Programs are the gods of the matrix). You have powers equivalent to that of a powerful program, but still u r a human

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Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant. Neo: Why am I here?

Why is Neo there ? Thats irrelevant ! Neo is led to the source (by who/what ?)

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Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix.

Note that Neo is the SUM of the unbalanced equation.

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You are the eventuallity of an anomaly, which, despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably... here.

The anomaly is within the "control". That "control" measure has led Neo to the architect.

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Neo: You haven't answered my question. Architect: Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

Neo is unique. He is not like the rest of the integral anomalies.

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TV Neos: Others? How many others? What others? Answer my question!

TV Neos are the "look-ahead" modules. They predict Neo's possible responses.

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Architect: The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the 6th version.

See...another reference to the summation (or totality). Neo is the most powerful anomaly who is most destructive to the system.

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Neo: There are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows.

Yeah thats why they removed those Cypher's dialogues abt war being over. I posted them in other threads ("Why scientheists theorys are wrong"...though my thoeries were misunderstood...not wrong). Also note that one of the monitor correctly predicts Neo's response in this particular scene. (a "hit")

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Architect: Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic - creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

The anomaly is harmful to the system (so what should be done ?)

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The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being.

Humans cannot simply accept a perfect dream. If it is too perfect, they dismiss it as a simple dream and wake up.

A flaw here : The humans are imperfect, implying that the machines/programs are perfect. Then what abt the program anomaly Smith ?

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Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure.

This is like a pleasant dream + a nightmare. Neither is this going to work, because the architect was simply showing visions and sounds to the people. He is not giving them any freedom within the matrix. This is like watching a TV show where u dont get to choose anything (assuming that there is only one channel)

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it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.

(...a lesser mind who can do "lesser" things) So you dont need exact sights and sounds for the system to work...an electronic approximation of the real-world sights and sounds will do

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Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level.

So they invented choice (ie) the people decide what to see and how to see. Its like a video-game where the people get to interact with the system. People decide what to see and what to hear. Note that the sights and sounds are not the exact representation of reality, they are approximations. If u were not able to get this introductory explanation, read my choice theory, most ppl say they dont understand it. So if u dont understand it, just ignore the choice part, ok ?

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While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed,

flawed because it was an approximation and not perfect

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thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly,

99% make proper choices, the system works fine. The remaining 1% dont make proper choices. They are systemic. They are the anomalies (plural)

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that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself.

We have a problem now, it must be handled. These 1% can spoil the acceptable dream of 99%. So we have to find a solution...we cannot let these 1% stay with the remaining 99%

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Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster. Neo: This is about Zion.

The anomalies are a small group of people("minority"), not just a person. So these 1% are kept in Zion. Zion is a quarantine. (Implying that Zion is a form of control)

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Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed - its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

If u have closely observed the movies, a program/person is not needed when it has served its purpose (like Keymaker,Agents Brown and Jones from M1 etc.). This means Zion has served its purpose and is no longer needed. So Zion's has two purposes

1. To quarantine the anomalies (the small group of people who reject the program)
2. To find the one and lead him to the source

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Neo: Bullshit. TV Neos: Bullshit! Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses

Another "hit" for the behaviour predicting look-ahead module !

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but rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

We've already done it 5 times. I'm 100% sure that we can do it again. Though Zion has its defences, we can easily penetrate it. We have a proper "game-plan" to take out the quarantine city.

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Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source,allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry

Yeah RETURN to the source. Note that once inside the matrix, the humans are nothing but programs (with least powers, not as powerful as agents,Merovingian's friends etc.). The code for anomaly originated from the source ("an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix"). Neo has got it accidentally. He must return it to the source.

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reinserting the prime program.

Restart the OS after that and reset the matrix year to 100 years before. (possibly 1899 assuming that Neo went to the architect in 1999).

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After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion.

See..."you will be required" to do things ? The architect is dictating terms to Neo. He tells him what to do. The machines AID the process of rebuilding Zion. This adds more proof to the fact that Zion is a control.

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Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Zion will be destroyed thats for sure, coz it has served its purpose. Now if u dont rebuild Zion, then the anomalies (the diseased group of people) will be within the matrix. Their anomalous disease will spread to the rest (99%). They will destabilize the matrix ("cause fluctuations in the simplistic equations"). The whole of the matrix world will become something like the "anomaly region" shown in "Beyond" (Animatrix). People will believe it to be a dream and they'll all start waking up. The matrix will be destroyed and all humans are gonna die !

Quote:

Neo: You won't let it happen. You can't. You need human beings to survive. Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.

We have other power sources (like windmills, plugging apes in the matrix etc.). But for you humans, matrix is the only hope because the eco system of the earth is destroyed. So you cannot survive for a long time outside the matrix.

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However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility of the death of every human being on this world.

The matrix is not our problem, its your(humans') problem. So decide what to do, join us or die !

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It is interesting, reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication - a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One.

What is the function of the one ? Returning to the source. What facilitates the function of the one ? The prophecy and fake war between Zion and machines !

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While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific - vis a vis love.

More explanation for Neo's uniqueness. Note that the other five ones' behaviour were almost similar.

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Neo: Trinity. Architect: Apropos, she entered the Matrix to save your life, at the cost of her own. Neo: No.

The architect is offering Neo a fair choice. He is not hiding any fact from Neo.

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Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed,

See how letting the people choose what they want to do has cost us ?

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and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end.

The integral anomaly who could escalate the probability of disaster started the problem. Zion was the solution. The integral anomaly is identified. So Zion must end (and restarted).

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But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already, I can see the chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason - an emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth.

He is studying the effect of love, which is very similar to the pattern of insanity. I guess he has fully understood love ("we already know"). May be thats why Sati is introduced in M3, a program which could truly love !

Now lets come to M3 :

Its my speculation that the architect has fully understood love. I also speculate that the architect has balanced all his equations. So he does not need any quarantine in the future. It could also be assumed that there will be no more anomalies in the future. But why did he simply let them go (Zionites) when Zion has served its purpose ? Because he kept his words.

(If u have found any flaws in my interpretations, please point them out. I might take some time to reply coz I'm busy these days. I type these posts when I find some free time. This could well be my last "big" post !)

Ill answer your first post first and then Ill get to your next one and so on. Please be patient.

scientheist wrote:

To really crack the matrix, u need to keep two things in mind 1. Dont expect that the wachowskys or the matrix.com will plainly explain you all the theories. (like u said expected levels in "lucid dreaming".) 2. Collect all the clues and deduce ur theory, build it on established facts

I would agree with this but you also can’t take those same sources and jump to wild assumptions.

scienthiest wrote:

Architect : Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority What abt the word MINORITY ? Lets say "those" meant previous Ones,then how do u explain the word "minority" ? The architect implies that "those that refused the program" are a GROUP of people (minority). So "those" and "minority" refer to the same GROUP of people and not previous Ones. THAT PROVES THE FACT THAT THERE ARE A GROUP OF ANOMALIES AND NOT JUST ONE ANOMALY !

Lets say “those” does not mean previous ones. The architect begins his monologue by stating that the first matrix was perfect and that humans rejected it en mass. Entire crops were lost. It was redesigned to reflect humans varying grotesqueries. He was again frustrated by failure. This implies humans rejecting the program en mass again. He then goes on to describe how the Oracle stumbled on to the answer to stabilize the matrix.
The architects next lines go as follows:

architect wrote:

She stumbled upon a solution whererby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level.

A choice was designed into the matrix whereby subjects that chose to refuse the program had an option to exercise that choice.

architect wrote:

While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself.

The fact that they designed a choice into the matrix also created a systemic anomaly (singular) that if not redirected with a measure of “control” would threaten the system.

architect wrote:

Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

“Ergo (for that reason), those that refused the program, while a minority” is referring to the .1% of humans that still reject the matrix by taking the red pill. They are a minority because they constitute .1% of the entire human population. It is because the anomaly emerges (for that reason) that the minority if left unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Its obvious the Architect is talking about two things here. A minority of persons who refuse the program constitute a rising probability of causing a disaster with the matrix because of the emergence of an anomaly that emerges from a flawed matrix.

scienthiest wrote:

You should be knowing the fact that "integral" means summation in maths. So Neo is an anomaly who exhibits ALL the features of an anomaly. Morpheus exhibits it only to a certain extent. (To be specific, using integration, u can find the sum of the curve between limits

Technically your definition of integral is incorrect. It has two definitions and I think both apply here but probably one more than the other. The definitions are as follows.

1. A complete unit; a whole. – this is analogous to your math definition. It is not a sum of the curve but a representation of the whole of the curve.
It can also be defined as the value of the function at a point in each unit which is multiplied by the linear or areal measurement of that unit, and all such products are summed. Your use of sum stretch’s the meaning a bit.

2. Essential or necessary for completeness – this meaning is a better representation of the meaning of integral anomaly. It says that the anomaly is a necessary part of the matrix. It is required to keep the matrix from crashing all the time. Therefore the “integral anomaly” (singular again) is required for the stability of the matrix.

The architect states:

architect wrote:

I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the 6 version.

Morpheus states they have been fighting this war for 100 years so we can use this number to make a rough estimate of how long each version of the matrix lasts. It is obvious that the architect is talking about a singe anomaly and that there is a large span of time from the emergence of one to the emergence of the next. He does not say group of anomalies of even anomalies

architect wrote:

Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end.

fundamental flaw = the one = the Anomaly (singular again). The one creates zion by selecting 23 individuals thus being the creator (beginning) - and the one, by choosing the source door, dooms zion to destruction in this version of the matrix being the destructor (end)

sceintheist wrote:

Okay now that I've proven the fact that there are group of anomalies and not just one, lets proceed to Zion. The anomalies are the problem, they must be not be left UNCHECKED, so Zion is the solution. (read the quote abv). What do u infer here ? Anomalies = problem, so they are QUARANTINED in Zion.

Sorry but you have not proven that there are a group of anomalies as I clearly show above. You must take the entire context of the conversation and analyze it. You can not take a bit of a conversation out of its context and make it mean what ever you want. In any case lets move on to Zion.

sceintheist wrote:

Zion: Your clues : (this is how u pick them !) What is the matrix ? Control What is control ? "you can smash them to peices when u dont want them" What is prophecy ? prophecy is a form of control (M2) Why is Neo in the architect's room ? He is an anomaly and is not "beyond a measure of control"

I would agree with all your clues here.

sceintheist wrote:

How is the function of the-one facilitated ? "a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One" Zion is not the last-human city. War between Zion and machine is fake. why ? Because the architect said that Neo must rebuild the matrix with 23 survivors. The machines are letting Neo rebuild the city. The machines AID them in rebuilding (implied). Is'nt it a bit weird ? Why would a group defeat their enemies and again simply let them regroup ? Its like overthrowing Saddam and letting Chemical Ali to rule ! Why would they simply let their enemies to grow again if they had already defeated them ? Say, if I'm the architect and if I see a real threat from Zion, then I'll destroy it and completely wipe it out (like the machines did in the surface). So Zion is a form of control.

I would agree that the war is fake in a sense but not totally. After all the humans think it is real so it is a real struggle for them. They are unaware of the nature of that struggle until the end of Reloaded. Once Neo realizes the nature of control the machines have been exercising on mankind and he chooses the left door the war becomes extremely real because the machines have lost that level of “control”.

We need to break down this quote by the architect.

Architect wrote:

Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication [BASE], a contingent [POSSIBLE] affirmation [TRUTH] that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One

.

What is this saying? The matrix was designed to produce this anomaly based on certain possible truths. The parameters of that truth are a profound attachment to the rest of his species. It is a “Possible truth” because not every one will develop the level of attachment that “The One” develops. So the matrix is designed to search out individuals that can, will and have developed these attachments and guide them to the source. This design goes hand in hand with the abilities of “The One”. The deeper the attachment the more pronounced his abilities are in the matrix. Neo was different. His attachment was to an individual and obviously deeper than any previous “ones” attachment. The architect and The Merovingian both expressed surprise at his abilities. He was obviously different. This leads us to another conclusion. Positive emotions like love, etc have a direct relation to your abilities in the matrix. The deeper your feelings run, the deeper your commitment to your cause and the deeper your abilities are.

This cycle has now been broken and its anybodies guess what will happen. I think the machines expect the matrix to crash and they will rebuild it again based on another system. But then there is that pesky smith virus running through the system. What do the machines do about him? At this point the whole ball game is up for grabs and the machines on some level may be thankful that Neo choose the left door.

This is further proof that “The One” (anomaly) is a singular person and not a group.

architect wrote:

Ok, now regarding the origin of Zion, there are two possibilities 1. It was the last human city, but it became a form of control when the first one chose to join with the source. (I'm not presuming this. The architect gave a choice between extinction of human race and its survival. The-one v1.0 had to choose between 250,000 zionites and 6 billion matrixians. Moreover, Zion was already REBUILT 5 times. It could have only been done if the previous ones had chosen the source door) 2. The machines built Zion purposefully for quarantining.

see above for my thoughts on the cycle of the one. We cant be sure of who created it or how long it has been there. I think it was carved out by machines and has been added to by man ever since.

scientheist wrote:

So the fact that Zion vs machines war is fake is proven. Its only purpose is to drive the one towards the source. ("...was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One"). Conclusion : Zion is a form of control. Zion's purpose is to quarantine the anomalies (plural). Fake war is to make them believe that Zion is the last-human-city and the-one would hail the destruction of the matrix.

The war is not fake but a real war that takes the form of a contol point of humans by the machines. Once this control point is broken the war becomes very real. Same comment for Zion. Its to keep the Minority population (plural) who reject the matrix and to be a home and rally point for the anomaly (singular).

scientheist wrote:

(and I hope with that detailed explanation, you'll change your opinion that I'm basing my theories without any proof and am coming to quick conclusions ! Also I'll come to M3 when we are done with M2)

Sorry but I cant see you point of view and the reason why is above. I still think you take to much out of context. What do you think of my theory on these things.

Starbuck

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fundamental flaw = the one = the Anomaly (singular again). The one creates zion by selecting 23 individuals thus being the creator (beginning) - and the one, by choosing the source door, dooms zion to destruction in this version of the matrix being the destructor (end)

Zing! Even though the anomaly creating is not the same person as the anomaly destroying, it's basically the same entity (same flaw). Great interpretation!


I noticed you correlated the One's attachment to other humans with his abilities in the Matrix. I see how you came to this direct relation- the architect says that his love his far more specific, and Neo is obviously more powerful than his predecessors. Basically, "attachment" is the only variable the movie gives us to explain Neo's powers relative to the other One's. However, I think this is a weak link- it seems as if there should be a more concise explanation. I firmly believe that the machine's "learn" more about humans everytime the matrix is restarted. After all, the source always gets its hand on the one's code. This tweaking leads to a better and better matrix (better = more convincing to the human mind) after each restart. However, it is STILL an approximation. I see this as a line sloping upward, approaching an asymptote. What is this line? It's the general percent of humans who accept the program. As it gets closer and closer to 100%, only the more "stubborn" humans remain. Since this is the 6th (or 7th) version, the one's power has increased. This goes hand in hand with the direct correlation to attachment.

Just my thoughts. back to paper.

Damn, I can't read all this crap (I mean that in a good way, serious). Since I discovered this damn site a couple of days ago, I have been hooked on read thru it and tyring to put the pieces together. Only the strong will survive. I need to pull out soon, before I try to become one of you folks. Damn, you dudes--scienthethist, starbuck, et al.--have really spent some major time and brain cells tying to discet this mess. VERY IMPRESSED! WOW!

Since you folks would probably be the best to give me an answer, what do you think about the machines simply wanting to keep the One alive (since for whatever reason [I guess to keep the matrix in mathematical balance] the machines actually gave the One part of the prime program which MUST be returned to the source NO MATTER WHAT)?

If the machines really wanted to keep neo alive, couldn't the machines bring Neo back to life when he seemingly dies in M1? Dying inside the matrix is just a mind-fu.k, right? Surely the machines could manipulate that and reverse that by giving Neo a little boost of sorts.

And Neo stopping the sentinels dead in their tracks at the end of M2, couldn't that just be the machines making sure Neo doesn't die--i.e., the machines (or machine god, or leader or whatever) shut the sentinels (i.e., the grunts) down before they kill Neo? Or by wirelessly or otherwise instructing neo to shut the sentinels down?


Anyway, not sure what your thoughts on that are, you have probably already dealt w/ it countless times, but, I guess very simply, it seems to me like the machines are going out of their way to make Neo stay alive no matter what. The ultimate proof of this is when Neo so effortlessly seems to make it straight to the source. I thought that was WAY to easy (i.e., like the machines were simply letting him make it [tho if they were truly letting him, then why did they put up any fight at all? To kill Trinity?]

Do you folks also generally believe that the machines are trying to keep Neo alive? (I imagine you would, assuming Neo has some important code in him).

Oh well, no need to respond (in depth or otherwise), I have to stop messing w/ this crap, it's addicting, and in no time I can seem myself spending countless hours trying to do what you folks are doing. Ugh!

I'm not convinced the WB have clear cut answers to all this stuff. They probably said, screw it, let someone else figure it out. hehe. Or, ever more probable, there are multiple possible explanations to connect the dots.

Either way, it's too time consuming!

Peace out and good luck!

First we'll agree on the levels of anomalies and then move along to the rest of the theories.

Agruments in favour of levels of anomalies (or groups of anomalies) :


1. This is a redundant post though (thats why I ask u to read all my theories, I posted this in the choice theory)
__________________
The word anomaly is used to refer the problem (flaw in choice), not the person. U can see in "Beyond" (Japanese Anime in the animatrix), a TV-screen like message with the following...

Quote:

WARNING : rendering anomaly at region 03:01:07.20, 11:07:04.20

Thats a concrete proof for my theory that anomaly is not another word for the-one. That also clearly proves wrong the claim that there is only one anomaly. Anomaly in "Beyond" was used in the sense that the rules of the matrix is being manipulated. In M2, the agents refer Neo as the anomaly, implying that he is the problem.

Anomaly refers to the problem and not the person. (Anomaly is defined as "departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method"). Ok, lets forget the word "anomaly". How do u explain the powers of Morpheus, Trinity, Niobe etc ?
__________________

2. Lets say integral meant "Essential or necessary for completeness", but how do u explain "SUM of the remainder of the unbalanced equation" ? I'd relate both words to maths meaning SUMMATION. Note that when u integrate a function and apply limits, u get a numerical value which is the summation of the y-axis-values along the limits of the curve. This is basic high-school knowledge.

3. "Lucid dreaming" gives the anomaly his power. It is a human faculty and every body can do it, though the degree of control which a person can possess varies. Its just like memory power. Everybody can do it, but only very few have greater degree of control. (Its not a "wild" assumption, its general knowledge and at times u must apply it to practical usage !). Moreover, in Plato's allegory of the cave, Plato says "the faculty of sight is always there, it only needs to be turned to the right direction", impying that u have the power to distinguish between shadows and the real objects, but u only need to discover taht power. If compare that to the matrix, everybody can "lucid dream" but only few are successful.

4.

starbuck wrote:

A choice was designed into the matrix whereby subjects that chose to refuse the program had an option to exercise that choice. ... The fact that they designed a choice into the matrix also created a systemic anomaly (singular) that if not redirected with a measure of “control” would threaten the system.

Webster definitions for "anomaly"

1. departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method; abnormality

2. anything anomalous

Btw u got wrong version of the script, its 1% and not 0.1%. Goto main page and DL it. "1% of all the test subjects refuse choice" implies "1% of the matrix population" refuse choice. They (plural) constitute the systemic anomaly (anomaly=deviation (the problem in the design of the matrix), not the person)


5.

starbuck wrote:

Its obvious the Architect is talking about two things here. A minority of persons who refuse the program constitute a rising probability of causing a disaster with the matrix because of the emergence of an anomaly that emerges from a flawed matrix.

Obviously those who took the red-pill are able to manipulate the rules of the matrix. (like Morpheus who can jump 10 ft high). If thats not "lucid dreaming", then how do u explain that ? That goes perfectly with my "levels of anomalies" or "levels of lucid dreaming" theory. Those who took red-pill are Level-2 anomalies, Neo ascended from level-1 ("something wrong with the world) to level-2 (jumping 10ft high and slamming Smith in the ceiling of the subway) to level-3(realized his full potential).

We'll proceed to Zion once we have reached an agreement here.

scientheist wrote:

First we'll agree on the levels of anomalies and then move along to the rest of the theories.

That is agreeable.

scientheist wrote:

The word anomaly is used to refer the problem (flaw in choice), not the person. U can see in "Beyond" (Japanese Anime in the animatrix), a TV-screen like message with the following... Quote: WARNING : rendering anomaly at region 03:01:07.20, 11:07:04.20 Thats a concrete proof for my theory that anomaly is not another word for the-one. That also clearly proves wrong the claim that there is only one anomaly. Anomaly in "Beyond" was used in the sense that the rules of the matrix is being manipulated. In M2, the agents refer Neo as the anomaly, implying that he is the problem.

You will have to greatly expand this argument. How does this prove a group of anomalies? As far as I can tell this shows nothing but the fact that they are tracking “The One”.

Your last statement disproves your previous ones! The exact wording was a follows:

Quote:

Neo: Hiya, fellas. [agent 1] It's him. [agent 2] The Anomaly. [agent 3] Do we proceed? [agent 2] Yes. [agent 3] He is still... [agent 1]...only human

It’s him, “The Anomaly”! He doesn’t say – its an anomaly or its one of the anomalies or even the biggest anomaly! He clearly states that Neo is “THEE ANOMALY”! Its him clearly refers to a single person and the anomaly clearly refers to a single anomaly. How do you get multiple anomalies from that?

scientheist wrote:

Anomaly refers to the problem and not the person. (Anomaly is defined as "departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method").

Once again the agents clearly state – It’s him, the anomaly.

scientheist wrote:

Ok, lets forget the word "anomaly". How do u explain the powers of Morpheus, Trinity, Niobe etc?

Quote:

“Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication [BASE], a contingent [POSSIBLE] affirmation [TRUTH] that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One”

All individuals have a certain level of attachment and commitment to cause. Based on that commitment/attachment each individual can achieve different levels of freedom in the matrix. Trinity is dedicated to Morpheus, Morpheus is dedicated to the Oracle and the Prophesy, Niobi is dedicated to protecting Zion. If M1 you saw Mouse pretty easily defeated. He relied on the weapons of the matrix more than his own faith, commitment and love. It led him to an early death. Neo is dedicated to Trinity to the point that Neo is willing to transcend death to be with her. That level of commitment has caused him to cross a threshold of attachment that in turn identifies him as “The One”. Trinity also has that level of attachment to Neo so why is she also not a “One/anomaly”? It’s because Neo not only has that commitment to Trinity but he also has a profound belief in himself that Trinity does not have in herself. The Oracles sign above the kitchen door is very profound – Know Thy Self. Neo knows and believes. Its that level of love, commitment and a belief in himself that Identifies Neo as “The One”. The ability to sacrifice anything, the belief that that sacrifice will cause change and the knowledge that you will have the will for that sacrifice are the most dangerous aspects of Neo. It is a set of qualities that is rare but does emerge in each version of the matrix and it threatens the system itself. It is the human incarnation of the matrix’s destabilizing anomaly that is inherent in every conceivable matrix.

So in a way your theories of levels is somewhat accurate but I don’t think you can define them as solidly as you have. It is based not on a digital stepping process but an analogue curve where each individual has a distinct level of freedom in the matrix based directly to their level of commitment on the curve.

scientheist wrote:

2. Lets say integral meant "Essential or necessary for completeness", but how do u explain "SUM of the remainder of the unbalanced equation" ? I'd relate both words to maths meaning SUMMATION. Note that when u integrate a function and apply limits, u get a numerical value which is the summation of the y-axis-values along the limits of the curve. This is basic high-school knowledge.

Lets look at the Architects comments in this section of his speech.

Quote:

Your life is the sum [1] of a remainder [2] of an unbalanced equation inherent [3] to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality [4] of an anomaly [5], which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously [6] avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably [7], here [1]The whole amount, quantity, or number [2]The number left over when one integer is divided by another or The number obtained when one number is subtracted from another [3]Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic [4]Something that may occur; a possibility [5]One that is peculiar, irregular, abnormal, or difficult to classify [6]Unceasing; persistent [7]relentless

“your life is the sum” – In this case your definition of integral is accurate. His life [points on a curve] is the sum.

“of a remainder of an unbalanced equation” –the remainder of the unbalanced equation equates to the anomaly. The Architect can’t balance both sides of the equation because humans are involved in the equation and they are unpredictable so there is no way to balance this equation.

“Inherent to the programming of the matrix” – now the “essential or necessary” definition of integral applies. It is an essential part of the programming of the matrix to seek out the anomaly and control it as it emerges.

“You are the eventuality of an anomaly” – Here again he is saying POSSIBLE TRUTH [contingent affirmation]. He is also saying the Neo alone is the anomaly.

“A burden assiduously avoided it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a level of control” – He is saying that even though he hopes it will not emerge if it does it is expected and can be controlled by the programming of the matrix.

So I would say we are both right in the definition of integral but I would still put forth the fact that Neo is the only anomaly.

scientheist wrote:

3. "Lucid dreaming" gives the anomaly his power. It is a human faculty and every body can do it, though the degree of control which a person can possess varies. Its just like memory power. Everybody can do it, but only very few have greater degree of control. (Its not a "wild" assumption, its general knowledge and at times u must apply it to practical usage !). Moreover, in Plato's allegory of the cave, Plato says "the faculty of sight is always there, it only needs to be turned to the right direction", impying that u have the power to distinguish between shadows and the real objects, but u only need to discover taht power. If compare that to the matrix, everybody can "lucid dream" but only few are successful.

I would agree with most of what you are saying here. I talk about belief above and I think that has a big part in your ability to “lucid dream” also. It is Neos belief in himself and his commitment to others that give him the ability to manipulate his environment through Lucid dreaming above all others.

scientheist wrote:

4 Webster definitions for "anomaly" 1. departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method; abnormality 2. anything anomalous Btw u got wrong version of the script, its 1% and not 0.1%. Goto main page and DL it. "1% of all the test subjects refuse choice" implies "1% of the matrix population" refuse choice. They (plural) constitute the systemic anomaly (anomaly=deviation (the problem in the design of the matrix), not the person)

Thanks for the clarification on the percent thing. I have seen it both ways and just picked one. You have this completely backwards. The 1% do not refuse choice. They exercise the choice to leave the system. That is the choice at a near unconscious level. Every person is aware of something wrong but most choose to ignore it. this is facilitated by belief. You must first experience an abnormal event then formulate a belief about that event. Few people have the commitment to make the leap from a comfortable existence to a belief that something is terribly wrong. A few make that leap and of those a few choose to pursue it. Still fewer choose to actually take the red pill and leave the system. This choice is built into the system by design. If it was not mass amounts of people would reject the programming and the matrix would crash. The original matrix had a design flaw in that it did not allow choice/growth. The current versions of the matrix allow choice. But because that choice can be exercised now by unpredictable humans the architect can never balance the equation. The architect has taken this into account also and now by design the matrix seeks out this anomaly (singular) which is the eventuality of this choice mechanism and guides it to the source for re-assimilation.

scientheist wrote:

5.Obviously those who took the red-pill are able to manipulate the rules of the matrix. (like Morpheus who can jump 10 ft high). If thats not "lucid dreaming", then how do u explain that ? That goes perfectly with my "levels of anomalies" or "levels of lucid dreaming" theory. Those who took red-pill are Level-2 anomalies, Neo ascended from level-1 ("something wrong with the world) to level-2 (jumping 10ft high and slamming Smith in the ceiling of the subway) to level-3(realized his full potential).

I agree with the lucid dreaming thing. That is correct. I don’t feel hard levels are the mechanism though to get to that. When Neo first took the red pill and came to the real world he could not jump 10 ft high. In fact in one simulation he crashed from a building top to the street. There are no hard levels that they can jump to. It is a slow process up a curve as I described above. As one gains confidence and a belief in self he progresses up the curve.

Thoughts.

Starbuck

Scienthiest

I have reviewed the "beyond" animatrix episode you reference. the anomaly they are reffering to is the glitch in the matrix. It has no refference to any individuals or anything else other than that glitch in the house. Unfortuantely that was a poor choice of words for that episode because I think it has confused some into reading to much into that word.

boris_G wrote:

Basically, "attachment" is the only variable the movie gives us to explain Neo's powers relative to the other One's. However, I think this is a weak link- it seems as if there should be a more concise explanation

I have a more concise explanation to this. It is in reference to Godels Incompletness theorem. I think it is referenced in the first post in this thread. Check it out.

there_is_no_spoon wrote:

Since you folks would probably be the best to give me an answer, what do you think about the machines simply wanting to keep the One alive (since for whatever reason [I guess to keep the matrix in mathematical balance] the machines actually gave the One part of the prime program which MUST be returned to the source NO MATTER WHAT)? If the machines really wanted to keep neo alive, couldn't the machines bring Neo back to life when he seemingly dies in M1? Dying inside the matrix is just a mind-fu.k, right? Surely the machines could manipulate that and reverse that by giving Neo a little boost of sorts. And Neo stopping the sentinels dead in their tracks at the end of M2, couldn't that just be the machines making sure Neo doesn't die--i.e., the machines (or machine god, or leader or whatever) shut the sentinels (i.e., the grunts) down before they kill Neo? Or by wirelessly or otherwise instructing neo to shut the sentinels down

Neo is the result of unbalancing the equation not the balancing factor in the equation. this is a result of the incompletness theorem as I said above. each time the one is integrated into the system the next one must become stonger to overcome the last "upgrade". Neo has evolved both in the matrix and mentally in the real world until he reached a point that he could make direct contact with the machines with his mind. the Sentinals are an extension of the source (his senses if you like) When Neo silences the sentinals it was the equivalent to slapping the hand of the source away that was coming to swat him dead.


Starbuck

Starbuck, thanks for the reply. But I still am not sure (sorry haven't read all your stuff, not humanly possible, hehe, read hunks of it tho) whether you think the machines are trying to keep Neo alive. Is that part of your theory?

If it is true that the matrix will be destroyed (and, hence, the human energy source) if Neo doesn't return to the source, then the machines have every incentive to keep neo alive (both in the matrix and out), right?

Being that I'm too lazy and impatient to read all that you and the others have said (esp scienthesis), just curious if you think the machines are seeing to it that neo gets to the source (by protecting him both in and out of the matrix). And if not, why wouldn't the machines be doing everything they can to keep Neo alive?

Thanks!

I think the machines want to keep the matrix alive and are not particularly concerned about Neo. He is an unwanted consequence of the system they have designed to keep humans from rejecting the matrix.

Neo is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. The unbalanced part is the fact that humans are emotional and unpredictable creatures. Thus the Architect can never design a perfect system because of the unpredictable behaviour of humans. So he designed the most perfect system he could with the knowledge that each version would eventually produce an anomaly that contradicted the system. Taking this into account, part of the programming of the matix is designed to guide this anomaly to the source for reinsertion to the system as an upgrade if you will. This produces a new version of the matrix that will eventually produce its own anomaly in turn.

The difference with Neo is as I described in other posts in this thread if you want the detailed info but for the nutshell version it is because of his intense love of Trinity and the fact that he has become more powerful than any matrix can be. This was an eventuallity to overcome the upgrades the architect has implemented over the previous versions. I belive the Oracle saw this coming and new that eventually an anomaly would emerge stong enough to do this. The architect did not foresee any of this because he functions from pure logic and order. He can't predict unforseen events. The Oracle herself says that "that man cant see past any choice he makes"

Hope that helps

Starbuck

starbuck wrote:

I think the machines want to keep the matrix alive and are not particularly concerned about Neo. He is an unwanted consequence of the system they have designed to keep humans from rejecting the matrix.

Dude thanks, I think that helps.

Do you believe the matrix and the crops of humans plugged into it will be destroyed if Neo does not make it to the source?

If so, then do the machines (and not necessarily the Archetict), want Neo to make it back to the source?

Hmm...maybe the machines don't know what the hell the Architect is up too. Maybe the machine god dude is oblivous to the concept of the One and most of the matrix? Hmm... I guess that's possible.

But, shit, if the machine god (or whatever it's called) knows that Neo must return to the source or else ...., then the machine god would be a total idiot if it let Neo die, esp. by way of one of it's dumb ass drone sentinels, right?

Oh well, thanks again for the insight. More is welcomed but all the mystery and no definitive answers are really wearing me out. Tho I'm addicted to the freekin forum. I'm trapped! Woe is me (us).

I'd like to give more clarification on my levels-of-anomalies theory. I chose simple non technical words so that people could understand easily. Now that u have agreed on the levels of lucid dreaming, for the time being, we'll call this theory "levels-of-lucid-dreaming". After debating abt the word "anomalies", we'll decide whether or not "levels-of-lucid-dreaming" is the same as that of "levels-of-anomaly"

starbuck wrote:

I don’t think you can define them as solidly as you have. It is based not on a digital stepping process but an analogue curve where each individual has a distinct level of freedom in the matrix based directly to their level of commitment on the curve.

You're right abt it. Human behaviour are not discrete functions but continous functions. I should'nt have used the word "levels", but it is a simple non-technical word, so for the sake of simplicity, we'll use levels. "Levels" are not exact levels but they are logical grouping. Let me re-explain it. Its not a point in the graph, but a range. Imagine dividing ur lucid-dreaming curve into ranges, each range is a level. I'm sorry for the misuse of the term "levels", but for simplicity we'll use levels to imply ranges.

Level 0 : Full acceptance, no lucid dreaming.

Level 1 : Something wrong with the world

This level could start from a "deja-vu" or some other abnormal activity in the matrix. It is also the result of the flaw in the logical reasoning of humans(fallacies). The Oracle explains abt people who believe in vampires,werewolves etc. This is the starting point of this level. This belief goes to a point where people are willing to DIE (red-pill,self-substantiation)to know the truth. Thats the ending-point of this level. (some bits are derived from ur explanation)

Level 2 : Bending the rules of the matrix

The starting point for this level is red-pill/self-substantiation. You die in the matrix, but you have a new life in the real world. You are resurrected. You start to believe that every physical object and every physical rule is bound by your choice. The power of lucid dreaming can vary from a zero (Neo falls in his first jump) to a maximum (dodging the bullets). The ending point of this level is another matrix-death.

Level 3 : Breaking the rules of the matrix

The starting point of this level is when u evade ur matrix-death. Note that every level is characterized by a birth and death. There is only one person who has made it to this level. In this level, u r a full fledged lucid dreamer. This is the most dangerous level to the matrix. Note that when Neo reached this level, he caused fluctuations in his surroundings (at the end of M1, the corridor is shown as codes and Neo produces a ripple in it). (Now the ending point of this level ?)

This part is just a speculation, we need to analyze more on this part: When Neo touched the source at the end of M2, he died. But like in the end of M1, he evaded his death again. He has reached a new level of control over his mind. He has reached LEVEL-4 where he is able to exert powers in the source itself. But this is no lucid dreaming, since there is no choice in the machine-world. Its like what u said..."the evolution of mind", the ability to control the source in the real world using mind-power.

starbuck wrote:

I talk about belief above and I think that has a big part in your ability to “lucid dream” also. It is Neos belief in himself and his commitment to others that give him the ability to manipulate his environment through Lucid dreaming above all others.

I agree with u. My choice theory is somewhat similar to what u said. Its BELIEF that counts. Read it here

scienthieist wrote:

You're right abt it. Human behaviour are not discrete functions but continous functions. I should'nt have used the word "levels", but it is a simple non-technical word, so for the sake of simplicity, we'll use levels. "Levels" are not exact levels but they are logical grouping. Let me re-explain it. Its not a point in the graph, but a range. Imagine dividing ur lucid-dreaming curve into ranges, each range is a level. I'm sorry for the misuse of the term "levels", but for simplicity we'll use levels to imply ranges.

I still don’t think you can quantify the Lucid Dreamers into Ranges or levels. As I said before the ability to change your environment is based on your status relative to the curve. This, in turn, is based on your level of commitment/Belief in yourself, your cause and your fellow man. This belief system is based around the “choice” built into the Matrix. You either choose to believe something is wrong or not, You either choose to believe you can leap 10ft or not and so on. That belief system is in direct relation to your position on the curve. There are no discreet events that cause you to travel this curve such as red pill, or death and resurrection. You simply travel the scale based on your individual ability to believe and commit. The “other potentials” in the Oracles appt were examples of persons that had traveled the scale further than others in the matrix. They had the ability to Lucid Dream but have no knowledge of something wrong with the world. These persons were more advanced than Neo at the time Neo met them but had never experienced the events that led Neo to the red pill. This is where the path to lucid dreaming and the path to the being “The One” differs and cannot be quantified into levels or ranges but points relative to a curve. The X axis of the curve is commitment facilitated by sacrifice and the Y axis is belief facilitated by love. Some will fall below the curve and some will fall above the curve. All individuals are at some point on, above or below the curve because of their personal experiences but Neo is “The One” because of the unique set of difficult parameters he has achieved to fulfill the requirements of “The One” that the matrix is designed to search out and guide to the source. They include the following:

Knowledge of something wrong (the Matrix)
The ability to sacrifice anything or go to any depth for a cause (commitment) (This is facilitated by love)
The belief that that sacrifice will cause change
The believe that you will have the will for the ultimate sacrifice for your commitment

It is a set of qualities that is rare but does emerge in each version of the matrix and it threatens the system itself. It is the human incarnation of the matrix’s destabilizing anomaly that is inherent in every conceivable matrix. In effect Neo has reached the pinnacle of the curve. Part of his journey was the red pill and his resurrection. The red pill was on the commitment side of the scale and his resurrection was on the belief side of the scale.

scienthieist wrote:

Level 2 : Bending the rules of the matrix The starting point for this level is red-pill/self-substantiation. You die in the matrix, but you have a new life in the real world. You are resurrected. You start to believe that every physical object and every physical rule is bound by your choice. The power of lucid dreaming can vary from a zero (Neo falls in his first jump) to a maximum (dodging the bullets). The ending point of this level is another matrix-death. Level 3 : Breaking the rules of the matrix The starting point of this level is when u evade ur matrix-death. Note that every level is characterized by a birth and death. This part is just a speculation, we need to analyze more on this part: When Neo touched the source at the end of M2, he died. But like in the end of M1, he evaded his death again. He has reached a new level of control over his mind. He has reached LEVEL-4 where he is able to exert powers in the source itself. But this is no lucid dreaming, since there is no choice in the machine-world. Its like what u said..."the evolution of mind", the ability to control the source in the real world using mind-power

You characterize moving from level 2 to level 3 with another matrix death. Neo did not die at the end of reloaded. He simply separated his mind from his body. I don’t understand how you get matrix death from this? When Neo touched the source he did not die. Also at the end of M1 he did not avoid his death. He died. He was simply resurrected after his death.

scienthieist wrote:

I agree with u. My choice theory is somewhat similar to what u said. Its BELIEF that counts. Read it here matrix-explained.com... we'll debate on that here if u want.

Let me hit the highlights here.
Your theory states the following:

Choice is a mechanism which the machines use to generate sights and sounds (and all other physical feelings) to you; but u have to make that choice.

If u make a choice that the spoon does not exist, its contradictory and hence the system gets confused. Because from machine's POV a spoon exists, but when u make a choice that "there is no spoon", the program will get confused, thereby losing the properties of the spoon

When the first matrix was created, it was very perfect. Its like standing in a beautiful place with things constantly moving around you. You cannot change what u want to see.

So the architect redesigned it with sorrowful events as well as blissful events. This was lame as well because its more like a TV show

So the mother of the matrix hit upon a solution...its choice ! That is the users decide what they want to see.

Your theory for choice is based on belief just as mine is but that is where the similarity ends. Your belief system is based on belief in external references where mine is based on internal belief in self. The matrix is a virtual world fed to you through mechanical interfaces to your body. You state that you have the ability to manipulate what is fed to you and change it. This in turn will cause confusion with the machines.

I don’t think you can confuse a computer program. The choice is not with manipulating the feed but with the choice to accept that feed or not.

Here is an analogy – you are fed a tv program. You have no choice as to what that program is (your theory says you do) but you do have the choice to believe it or not and the choice to turn It off. You also have the choice to change the channel to a different program. Once you make the choice that there is something wrong with the channel you make the choice to keep watching, turn it off or change the channel.

This is in direct correlation to my belief theory. You must first believe something is terribly wrong, (believe the tv program or not) then you must make the choice to pursue the answer to there being something wrong, and finally, once you have figured that out, you make the choice to ignore the lie or fight the lie. Once you have decided to fight the lie you can gain the ability to “change the channel”. This is the ability to lucid dream. You can manipulate your output to the feed. Because this is an interactive program your output to the matrix is reproduced in the matrix.

scienthieist wrote:

Now we have agreed that Levels-of-anomalies is conceptually correct, we must debate whether or not the word "anomalies" is correct.

I think we have the same basis for beliefs but how we build up from that varies somewhat. Here is what I see as basic differences so far.
You believe in levels of licid dreaming – I believe in a curve of lucid dreamers.
You believe choice is a mechanism to change the matrix feed – I believe choice is a mechanism to accept of deny that feed and upon that choice gain the ability to modify your input to the matrix.

scienthieist wrote:

When I first saw M2, I thought the anomaly is a word which is used to refer to a person who can manipulate the rules of the matrix. Then I spent some more time and I guess the anomaly is used in the following two senses. 1. Primarily, "Anomaly" refers to the PROBLEM in the design of the matrix. (Source : "Beyond"). The "problem" is the flaw in choice which leads to fluctuations in equations. 2. Secondary meaning of the anomaly is used to refer to the person who causes the problem. (source : Agents quote in M2)

1. There is no flaw in the design of the matrix. It is designed to bring out the anomaly that cannot be avoided due to the inconsistent interactions of humankind and guide him to the source. Its like making a compound with an unstable element. You can never balance the compound but you can build in safe guards so when that unwanted but expected unstability emerges you can deal with it in a rational manner to eliminate it. The architect can never balance the logical equations of the matrix because he is working with a substance that is not logical and numerical. Humans are emotional and irrational but if you take that into account you can control the equation.
2. This is the definition of the Anomaly – an individual that defies the balance of the equation.

scienthieist wrote:

Let me explain the relation between lucid dreaming and anomaly : Consider the act of bending the spoon. In Neo's perspective, he is just lucid dreaming. In the system's perspective, a fluctuation in the equation is caused (ie) an "anomaly" is being experienced in the system. So if we go by what I said for anomaly, the word "anomalies" means the group of people who cause anomaly (problem). So the word anomalies can be used for lucid dreamers.

The act of bending the rules in the matrix may cause fluctuations in the matrix but I have never heard it referred to as an anomaly. If your definition were correct the result of inconsistencies would be the anomaly not the persons causing the inconsistencies. In Beyond the ghost house is referred to as an anomaly because it is a failure in the matrix just as Neo is a failure in the design of the matrix. By design the matrix gives you a choice to accept the program or not. The machines have also built in a complex level of control to handle the ones that do not accept the program. This is an integral part of the emergence of the Anomaly – the individual that breaks the rules of control and choice – in this case Neo. So the only time an anomaly is experienced is when there is a failure in the matrix programming itself. These failures are not wanted but expected and because they are expected a complex set of controls are in place, by design, to handle then as they emerge.

The statement of the agents in M2 stands for itself – its him, the anomaly. You cant be any clearer than that!

As far as this section of the debate goes I think we have a vast difference of opinion. I believe in a single anomaly and you believe in multiple anomalies.


What do you think.

Starbuck

I need some more time to think over all the things u said, but check that theory again (esp the post which gives technical explanation abt choice). The matrix is NOT a TV show, its an interactive video game. Read that part and tell me what u think.

I just had some more deeper ideas. It occured to me when I was walking down the street. I asked myself "If I am in the matrix (dream world) right now and if I can choose where to walk and how to walk...would that be a dream or a lucid dream ?". What is the difference between a "dream" and a "lucid dream" ? In a dream, you cannot control anything, not even the places u want to explore. In a "lucid dream", you take control of ur dreams. In the matrix, everyone believes that they have a real life (like what we have). Everyone can decide their actions (ie) they can take control of their dream. So EVERYONE in the matrix is lucid dreaming ! (though levels vary). The success of the choice mechanism is through interaction (ie) the matrix is a "lucid dream world" rather than a "dream world". The flaw in this mechanism is that the humans were able to exert greater degree of control in their lucid dreams.

Coming back to the anomalies, I already gave two literary definitions.

1. departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method; abnormality - This is what I meant by "problem". ("fundamentally flawed")

2. anything anomalous. This is what I meant by a person who causes the problem

Quote:

thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly[1], that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself[2]. Ergo those that refused the program[3], while a minority, if unchecked[4], would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

1. The architect is explaining abt the contradictory systemic anomaly (problem, not the person).

2. The anomaly (problem, not person) must not be left "unchecked"

3. Those that refused the program, lets say are different from the anomaly (ur "anomaly", the One)

4. ...should not be left unchecked.

See, the architect's quote is very linear. Systemic anomaly should not be left "unchecked", those that refuse the program should not be left "unchecked". It does not get any more obvious than that. So both refer to the same and are NOT seperate entities. Those that refuse the program constitute the systemic anomaly ! So there are multiple anomalies ! (If u could say that "those" meant those who refused the first matrix program, then there would be no relationship between the statements and we will have no meaning at all!)

First off, congratulations to anyone who has read all of this VERY large argument. I think that it would be a MAGNIFICENT idea to have a convention. These conversations are WAY to limited by the fact that you have to type in what you are thinking. Many people have different forms of communication that they are better at. There are TONS of opinions out there that are simply not being expressed about the very same topics that are discussed on this forum for the sole reason that this form of communication does not suit everyone. Some people are better at flowing ideas through verbal communication (which has it's limits as well, sadly). Why not open the horizons a little more though? Great idea, if you ask me.

A few comments for the active participants in this conversation:

To scientheist: I believe that you possess a very rational mind. You have a great skill with working with detail. Your open-mindedness to other's ideas is a rareness. Treating others with respect when trying to get your opinion out is a skill you take to heart. I agree with almost everything you have said in this entire thread (and yes, I've picked through it thoroughly) and appreciate the fact that even though others may be disrespectful or ignorant or stubborn, you still try to address questions with respect. *claps for scientheist*

To starbuck: In the beginning of this thread, I almost dismissed you entirely as I found you to be rude, close-minded, and extremely stubborn. Through reading the posts that followed, I have grown to appreciate your character a little more. This is not a bash in any way, please don't take it as one. You are very opinionated. You seem to be a little bit stubborn in accepting other's ideas, but you do put a lot of work into trying to understand them. That's the part that counts. You have a lot of very fine ideas as well, and I thank you for making them public and allowing others to hear what you think!


And now, on to my 2cents: (btw, for some strange reason, when I type the word "XXcentsXX" with out the 2 X's on either side, it reads "testicles" instead of the correct word. Not sure why, but try it and see if it comes out the same? Seems to do it with or without quotes. The XXcentsXX don't make sense...hehe...)

Humans and machines have a relationship all throughout the trilogy. 99% of the time, they get along just fine with each other. 1% of the time, they get into a bit of a scuffle (understatement of eternity). This relationship seems pretty healthy to me. Imagine that you got along with your boyfriend or girlfriend 99% of the time and only had conflict 1% of the time. Everyone I know would marry that person in a heart beat! To be married, ah the benefits....Could the humans and machines possibly get married? Hmm....And if they did...with a relationship as good as it is (what with only fighting 1% of the time) could they work toward sharing something greater...? Could they work together toward creating a 100% relationship? To eliminate that 1% scuffle margin? To share such a connection? Such a love? Is it possible for a human to love a machine? According to the definition of love in M3, I believe so. Could it develop into the human definition of TRUE love? The kind of TRUE love that only exists (to my knowledge so far) in fairy tales? Could that be the purpose of consistently upgrading the matrix? To get to know eachother better through each version? I have a love of questions at the moment. It is after all, in the beginning, the question that drives us. The question leads to a purpose, the purpose leads to...well, we'll see where it leads us.

The matrix v1.0...was designed to be perfect...all fairy tale land. Everything is good all the time. Why was it designed that way? Was it because the machines wanted humans to be happy all the time? Or was it perhaps because pure happiness and complete love all the time was what the machines wanted from the humans? A perfect relationship? A perfect connection. A perfect love?

Yes, they did want to have a power source. Yes, there are fields of humans that serve a purpose for the machines. But it's always how you look at things. You could be stubborn as hell and always say that the humans were enslaved. I'd agree with that to a ceartin extent. But look at it in a different way! You don't even have to believe it, but just admit that there's another way to look at it. If it were possible for machines and humans to love one another...to have a 100%...imagine the benefits to both species. Symbiosis is always fun...hehe

I dunno, maybe I'm just talkin out of my ass here (and somebody tell me if they think I am ), but that's what I think that the machines are working towards everytime they create a new version of the matrix. I'm not sure who said it (sorry...I read it in this thread somewhere in there), but it was a very good point: each version of the matrix incorporates something from the last...I'm terrible with staying on track, so try to follow me through this next idea:

Love. How often does it happen in real life? TRUE love? Almost never, right? How many lifetimes would it take to find true love? If you had literally FIELDS of lifetimes...if you just let them live their lives...do you think that sooner or later (maybe 100 years later), one of those lifetimes will encounter TRUE love? And at the point, the machines could analyze every bit and piece of that true love. Find out what it is that makes love. With that information, the machines could work toward creating a true love...Sati (or however u spell it) is the attempt to create true love. I'm sure in the Matrix v7.0, Sati will somehow fall in love with a human. She will give true love to that human. Maybe somehow that true love will spread. Perhaps that single human that falls in love with a machine will spread his disease to the rest of the human race. Perhaps EVERYONE can have a true love with the machines.

I think that each Matrix that is designed is meant to teach the machines something new about the humans, in extreme detail. This particular version was designed to gain an understanding of love. Perhaps other versions were made to develop an understanding of other complex human capacities. Perhaps more will delve further. Who knows? I'm just rambling. I may be young, but I'm an old man at heart, and like the councilman said, "Old men don't bother making points."

Just some random thoughts, again...lemme know what you guys think.

Dweeb

scientheist wrote:

WHAT! you said bug not me. (And by the way I am a Network and software engineer so I know what a bug is.)

You seem to be over qualified!

scienthiest wrote:

I need some more time to think over all the things u said, but check that theory again (esp the post which gives technical explanation abt choice). The matrix is NOT a TV show, its an interactive video game. Read that part and tell me what u think.

I did read the theory in detail. From what I understand of your theory you say the first two versions were like watching a tv show that you couldn’t change anything. The later versions were like being in a video game where you could change things. My point is this – even in a video game you cannot change the majority of what you see, hear and do. It leads you by the nose to a point of conclusion that you cannot avoid except by your untimely death. For example, you cannot change the way buildings are designed or how the streets are layed out or how fast you can run because you are still bound by the rules of that video game system. Your only choices are how you interact with the environment presented to you but you still must act within the rules of that system. Now lets say you found a way to bend and even break those rules. It would be your output into the system that allowed that. For example, how do you bend the rules in a video game? You must hack the code and modify the environment to suit your needs. This does not affect anyone else in the game – just you. So in effect when they are jacked in they are able to affect the code of the matrix through the hack of lucid dreaming. If you do not posses this hack (skill) you cannot affect the code. My point to all this rambling is this. It is your output that affects the rules not you affecting the input.

To further this point I think all versions of the matrix were similar to this environment. The difference was that in the first two versions you didn’t have the choice to turn it off - facilitated by the red pill. People began to believe something was wrong but had no way to pursue that belief. Eventually they found ways to hack the code themselves and passed that on to others. The problem spread and caused the system crashes. Now the matrix is designed to weed those persons out and allow them out of the matrix to another system of control.

The ultimate expression of this choice mechanism is Neo. The one that can break any rule and hack any code. When that anomaly emerges the matrix is designed to lead him to the source and reintegrate him back into the matrix thus starting the cycle all over again.

scienthiest wrote:

I just had some more deeper ideas. It occured to me when I was walking down the street. I asked myself "If I am in the matrix (dream world) right now and if I can choose where to walk and how to walk...would that be a dream or a lucid dream ?". What is the difference between a "dream" and a "lucid dream" ? In a dream, you cannot control anything, not even the places u want to explore. In a "lucid dream", you take control of ur dreams. In the matrix, everyone believes that they have a real life (like what we have). Everyone can decide their actions (ie) they can take control of their dream. So EVERYONE in the matrix is lucid dreaming ! (though levels vary). The success of the choice mechanism is through interaction (ie) the matrix is a "lucid dream world" rather than a "dream world". The flaw in this mechanism is that the humans were able to exert greater degree of control in their lucid dreams.

This is a fascinating concept but I still think it is more like the video game analogy. You are lead down a path to a destination that is inevitable. How you get there may not be written in stone but you will get to your destination eventually or die in the process of trying. Every video game you have ever played has a beginning and an ending! Each character in that game has a purpose, a role to play and a destination. The true lucid dreamers have injected themselves into the matrix and thus serve no purpose in any aspect of the “video game”. They can do what they want because they lurk behind the scenes in the code of the matrix and have no destination so they can manipulate things as they please.

scienthiest wrote:

Coming back to the anomalies, I already gave two literary definitions. 1. departure from the regular arrangement, general rule, or usual method; abnormality - This is what I meant by "problem". ("fundamentally flawed") 2. anything anomalous. This is what I meant by a person who causes the problem

I think we agree on the definition of anomaly. Let me leave you with a few thoughts to ponder.

One -

Quote:

Neo: Hiya, fellas. [agent 1] It's him. [agent 2] The Anomaly. [agent 3] Do we proceed? [agent 2] Yes. [agent 3] He is still... [agent 1]...only human

two –

architect wrote:

I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

Three –

architect wrote:

You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.

These passages show clearly that a single anomaly is present in the system. Anomaly is the problem in the system. The problem is choice and Neo is the eventually (human incarnation) of the choice problem.

Thoughts.

Starbuck.

PS, in reference to some of Dweebs comments. – I have found this debate a pure pleasure. While at times I have come across as gruff and cynical that was never my intention. I commend Scientheist for his dedication and commitment to this debate. Not many would have taken it this far. It is these in-depth discussions that lead you to new truths and answers to the hardest questions. I must say Scientheist has caused me to reexamine and modify many of my theories. While I don’t know if we will ever come to complete agreement on these issues that is not the purpose. We do these things to gain better understanding of ourselves and each other and it’s a hell of a lot of fun!

and I continue to have hope that Scientheist will realize that I am right! – (sorry just I joke I couldn’t resist.)

Zion : My Zion theory that 01 became zion was wrong. However, the fact that the war is over is proven. You can find it in the rudimentary script of M1 (but this is not found in the movie). So Zion is a form of "control".

Quote:

He stands over the body of Morpheus, as his anger boils up out of him. CYPHER You see, the truth, the real,truth is that the war is over. It's been over for a long time. And guess what? We lost! Did you hear that? We lost the war! TRINITY What about Zion? CYPHER Zion? Zion is a part of this delusion. More of this madness. That's why this has to be done. It has to end. Now and forever. She suddenly sees the entire dark plan. TRINITY Oh my God. This is about Zion. You gave them Morpheus for the access codes to Zion. Cypher walks away from Morpheus and bends down next to Apoc's body. CYPHER You see, Trinity, we humans have a place in the future. But it's not here. It's in the Matrix.

Question: where does one such as myself acquire this rudimentary script? I find this deleted scene to be fascinating and can only imagine other deleted parts as well.

CC

Starbuck,
THANK GOD ! U UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IN MY CHOICE THEORY ! And regarding those input-output stuff, our "output" (as u put it) is the "feedback", the matrix-code is varied accordingly to the feedback and input to us.

Regarding the red-pill, I'll explain it a bit more.

"Ergo those that refused the program..."

Program is the matrix (ie) the dream-world or simply a dream. The quote could be interpreted as

"Ergo those that refused the dream..."

(ie)

"Ergo those that refused to accept the dream as real..."

Now when u take the red-pill, u refuse to accept ur dream as real. When u believe "that there is no spoon", you are denying ur imposed reality. These constitute the systemic anomaly. If u remember what I said in my first post, choice is used in two senses.

1. The choice mechanism (technical choice (ie) TV to Game conversion)

2. Illusion of choice (philosophical choice (ie) free will which is opposed to determinism)

starbuck wrote:

You are lead down a path to a destination that is inevitable

Exactly ! This is the whole point of trilogy. There is no free-will, there is only determinism and inevitability (explicit in the final scene when Neo gives himself up). All other doors are closed and the One is compelled to walk on his destined path.

starbuck wrote:

Each character in that game has a purpose, a role to play and a destination.

Yeah, thats the whole point. It makes me wonder whether we have any purpose too in our "real" life ! Some quotes...

Quote:

Neo: Why are you here? The Oracle: Same reason...We are all here to do what we are all here to do Keymaker : We do all that we are meant to do; ... Niobe: How do you know all this? Keymaker: I know because I must know. It's my purpose. It's the reason I'm here. Same reason we're all here. ... Morpheus : I believe it is our fate to be here. It is our destiny.

Now that we have agreed on most issues (though differ slightly on some minor issues), I'll proceed to Zion.

starbuck wrote:

Once Neo realizes the nature of control the machines have been exercising on mankind and he chooses the left door the war becomes extremely real because the machines have lost that level of “control”.

No. Zion is a form of "control". It can be smashed to peices when the machines dont want them. Thats the procedure. Every time an integral anomaly emerges, the machines attack Zion with quarter million sentinels. The machines will destroy Zion no matter what door the One chooses. The machines are still in full control of Zion. War could become real ONLY if the Zionites could venture into the surface with huge armies and destroy the foetus fields. But in M3, it was different. Neo struck a deal with the machines, so the machines agreed to let them go.

The future of the matrix movies lies in "design" (I explained that in the architect-conversation post). The "design" is how to make the One return to the source. It seems that the machines are abandoning this design of fake-war,prophecy and Zion. The agents want keymaker to be deleted, Merovingian says that the Oracle's time is up. So it is possible that the machines have contrived some other "design" to make the 7th One return to the source.
____________

Starbuck,
You are the best guy I have ever had a debate with ! No one has raised so much questions like you have ! U have asked all the possible questions which people could ever ask and I've tried to answer most of those questions. That would definitely be easier for people to read my theories and accept them(hopefully). I hope you'd like to debate on the rest of my theories.

Dweeb,
Thanks for the positive feed-back. I totally lost hope that I'd ever be able to get my ideas to people. I was also wondering whether I'm really "arrogant and cocky" as some people called me... but after reading ur comments I realize that they were wrong !

CobraCommander,
Search for "matrix script" in Kazaa (or any other P2P). I've got a PDF version of size 138Kb. See if u can find it. Note that the plot was ENTIRELY changed after M1. According to that rudimentary script, Morpheus unplugged all the previous 5 ones and they all died. So there is no Zion-cycles according to that old script. But that script was very useful to deduce the fact that Smith was an anomaly.

Scienthiest wrote:

Starbuck, THANK GOD ! U UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IN MY CHOICE THEORY ! And regarding those input-output stuff, our "output" (as u put it) is the "feedback", the matrix-code is varied accordingly to the feedback and input to us

I see what you are saying but I still do not agree with it. I still feel my theory makes more sense.

We have gotten so deep into the thing that I have lost track of what we have even talked about - heh. It is good to move on to something else.

Scienthiest wrote:

No. Zion is a form of "control". It can be smashed to peices when the machines dont want them. Thats the procedure. Every time an integral anomaly emerges, the machines attack Zion with quarter million sentinels. The machines will destroy Zion no matter what door the One chooses. The machines are still in full control of Zion. War could become real ONLY if the Zionites could venture into the surface with huge armies and destroy the foetus fields. But in M3, it was different. Neo struck a deal with the machines, so the machines agreed to let them go.

There is still a war (conflict) going on and here is why:

Man and Manchine fought.
Machine won and enslaved man.
Even though man is enslaved he still fights for his freedom.

This fight may not come in open warefare or armed conflict by man still struggles for his freedom from slavery. The machines have imposed a complicated system of contol over man to keep him in line but the very fact that humans continue to reject the program and fight for their freedom dictates that there is conflict going on between man and machine.

Simple as that.


Starbuck

Well, U said that the war got real when the One got out of control, and I said that there is no war at all, just a control.

Regarding the definiton of war u gave, it all depends on the perspective and our opinions. Consider this analogy : I am a citizen of a nation. The nation has some rules and laws. These rules and laws are for my own good and for the welfare of the people. Lets say I'm a psychotic killer. I want to kill people and do harm to them, but I cannot do it because the laws restrict me. In a sense these laws are a form of SLAVERY to me. If I break this law (its "good" in my perspective, not "bad"), then the governing body would detain me in jail. I'm no longer wanted in the society. I could even be killed for my will to be free. But still I can resist the society and fight against them for my survival. It all depends on the perspective... whether to be bound by those laws (which was created for my own good) or to fight against those laws (which restrict my freedom).

Moreover, a "war" in my opinion is a fight in which both sides are equal and both compete against each other desperately to have the upper hand. Its just as simple as this...when two 5 year olds fight each other, then it is a real fight. When two grown up muscle men fight each other, then it is a real fight. But when a grown-up muscle man fights a 5 yr old kid, its not a fight...its a control which the man exerts over the kid. The kid can only resist, but cannot stop the muscle man.

I think we should confine ourselves to what is happening in the movie rather than giving our own perspectives on it. The war between Zion and the machines is a real WAR in one perspective and a CONTROL in another. But the fact is its a fight which Zion cannot win.

you completely discount the will of freedom in your analogy. Lets return to the kid fighting the muscle man. What if that kid went and got a gun and shot the muscle man. In that instance the kid would have gained a technology superior to the man and overcome his power. Never say that a struggle can not be won.

Nations are built on laws and men will live within the paramaters of that law because of two things: either the power of the laws is with the people or those laws are forced on someone by a dictatorial leadership. In the event of the first you may have the will to break those laws and you will be treated with in the boundaries of those laws you agreed upon. In the event of the second you may have the will to break those laws but you may or may not be treated within the boundaries of those laws.

By the nature of man the event of the second will be fought against because the ruling bodies do not live within the framework of the very laws imposed on men. That is slavery and it will always be fought against either though resistance, or open warfare through armed conflict. In any case the defintion of war is the same.

A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties. A condition of active antagonism or contention.
A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious.

If the humans are not fighting a war then I dont know what they are doing.
Humans and machine alike die in this conflict. That is not a system of control by one side. If it were, they would not take any casualties. The war is an acceptable outcome of the Anomaly of the Matrix. The machines accept the inevitablity of a limited war to keep the matrix stable.


Starbuck

Theories are theories. Theres no need to be rude or victimise someone just because you do not share the same views.
Scientheisis' analogy was ment to represent an uneven fight where one side has very little chance of winning, I dont think an argument saying
"0h m7 w0t if he had a gun? H3 wud own j00!" can be classed as an acceptable or intelegent comment.
Oh and starbuck how would a 5 year old child obtain a gun and be able to hold it (guns are heavy) let alone even know how to use it may I ask?
You should ALL hang your heads in shame (proberly in unison)