»Why Scientheist's theorys are not correct.«

First let me say the following.

Zion is a real place.
Neo is human.
The machines gave the humans a choice - enslavement or extinction.

Now on to the debate.

scientheist wrote:

Humans have no way of surviving on earth, because they have destroyed the eco system. The architect claims that machines have "levels of survivals". Also, in SR-2, they show machines signing a truce with the humans. So I'd conclude that the matrix is a sanctuary built for humans (which is ofcourse subject to debate).

A sanctuary? No – that was an unconditional surrender. The humans chose enslavement over extinction. The machines enslaved the humans for their own purposes the same way we do cattle or sheep etc. The humans serve a purpose for the machines. It is impractical for the machines to rise above the clouds because of the severe magnetic and electrical disturbances at that layer. This is evidenced in the final movie when the hover craft was disabled as it passed through the cloud layer. A machine could not pass it without being disabled or destroyed and I assume that any means to pipe power from above to below would also be severely hampered.

scientheist wrote:

Choice is a mechanism where u see what u want to see rather than what is being shown. So the mother of the matrix hit upon a solution...its choice ! That is the users decide what they want to see.... the user has to make a choice abt the sights and sounds he wishes to see. To be more precise... when a user walks, he makes a choice to see things ahead of him. This could be compared to a video game, where u make a choice and decide which place u want to explore and it is more interactive (and not sick like a TV show). 99.9% accepted this solution, but there are 0.1% who dont make proper choices.... they constitute this problem of anomalies. To be more precise, if u believe that the buildings are concrete then they will be concrete; but if u believe that they could be bent then the machines will bend it for u... because ur the one who has to make the choice ! As explained in my choice theory, only 99% accepted the solution. The remaining 1% constituted the systemic anomalies. Quoting from the architect: Architect wrote: While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster There are levels of anomalies. Level 0 : Full acceptance Level 1 : People who believe that there is something wrong with the world and who believe in ghosts, vampires, aliens etc. Level 2 : People who can bend the rules Level 3 : People who can break the rules, there is only one who can do it So Level 2 and Level 3 are dangerous to the system. So they must be quarantined in a seperate place so that their "disease" will not spread to others.

Where did you get this wild claim of levels of anomalies? You have totally missed the point of the Essay “Matrix of Dreams”. In that essay he explains that the matrix induces a dream state in the humans connected to the matrix. They have no choice over that dream state at all with the exception of a very rare few individuals who are capable of “lucid dreaming”. This is a type of dreaming in which the individual can take control of his or her dream and make it anything he wants. “The One” has this ability. This has nothing to do with the choice the Oracle or the Architect are talking about. That choice has to do with whether or not you believe the dream you are having. Each individual has the choice to believe the dream or not. If you do not believe the dream you are among that 1% that chooses not to believe at a near unconscious level. Just because you choose to not believe does not mean you have the choice to change that dream state. Only the “lucid dreamer” (the One) has that ability. Lucid Dreamer/The One equates to the systemic anomaly. Those that refused the program are the ones that choose to not believe the dream. The anomaly and the persons who reject the program are two different entities, and there is only one anomaly per version of the matrix.
The machines don’t create a new matrix every time the code is inserted into the machine. It is simply upgraded. Here’s my proof of theory:

There is a rule of systems (Godel’s theorem of incompleteness) that states that you can never prove a systems absolute stability using the rules of the system alone. There is no way to prove the rule itself. It’s like saying:

This statement is false.
If this statement is false then it is true.
And if it is true then it is false

You can incorporate a new rule into the system to accommodate for the anomaly but then there is no way to prove the newly incorporated rule. It goes on for infinity and this is the basis for the matrix. As the anomaly emerges in each version of the matrix it is incorporated into the Matrix as an "upgrade" if you will. The upgrade is incorporated into the system when the “one” returns to the source to reinsert the prime program. After the insertion life goes on as normal in the Matrix but with the upgrade that takes into account the current anomaly that emerged. This renders him useless against the system until the next anomaly comes along. This is part of the reason Neo has become so strong and the reason the Merovingian was surprised at his power. He is more powerful than the last "one". Because he has to overcome the last upgrade to the system The oracle has watched this evolve and knew it was only a matter of time before an anomaly came along that was powerful enough to break the system and choose the left door to truly end the war and free Zion

The events that take place in the current incarnation of the matrix are not necessarily the events that took place in former incarnations. For example former incarnations of the matrix had no Trinity, demonstrated by the fact that “the one” experiences love in a general way for mankind vs a specific way for an individual. Because of these things it means that in former incarnations of the Matrix the Merovingian may or may not have had the Key Maker captured and therefore his interactions with “the one” would have been completely different. This is evidenced also by the fact that the Merovingian was surprised at Neo’s power. This shows he has probably never had personal contact with a “one’ before or Neo is stronger than any previous “one’”.

scientheist wrote:

Zion: Zero-one,the under ground machine city became Zion

This makes sense.

scientheist wrote:

The machines gifted this city to humans because * All the cities in the surface were deliberately destroyed by the machines so that humans dont form rebel factions * People cannot survive in the surface as it is too cold * 01 is near the core and is hot * 01 was already built and was'nt used by the machines when they came to surface

Where did you get that is was gifted to the humans. The machines enslaved the humans. There was no gifting of anything. It was the simply the only logical place for those humans that choose not to believe the matrix.

scientheist wrote:

So zero-one became a natural candidate for the "quarantine" city. The initial formation of Zion is not clear, but I'd speculate that it was initially led by the UN leaders held up in Zion (another subject for debate). Zion was built with the aid of machines, in the sense that machines aided humans in making all the recycling and life-support systems necessary for sustainability of life("the engineering level"). They also built those grand network of pipelines.

You just stated that Zion is the former zero one and now you say its unclear how it was formed? See above.

scientheist wrote:

The machines bred people for Zion. Zionites were made to believe in a lie and a false prophecy that... * the war between the machines and humans is not over * destruction of the matrix will mean victory to humans * there will be a one who can control the matrix (level-3 anomaly) * the one must be found * the one must reach the source so that the matrix will be destroyed and the war will end Ofcourse, we know this is a lie and a deception because matrix SAVES humans, not imprison them.

That statement is exactly backwards. The machines built the matrix to enslave the humans and use them for energy. Where is your proof for this wild claim! If you accept that the animatrix is Canon its quite obvious that the machines brutally enslave the humans for their own purposes.

scientheist wrote:

So the Zionites will hunt for people in the matrix who show anomalous behaviour. They are unplugged with the hope that they might be the one. They are trained to BEND the rules of the matrix (level-2 anomalies). Obviously, the one is a transcendence from level-1 to level-2, and from level-2 to level-3. The one is found by those "prophecy believers" like Morpheus. Zion serves two purpose 1. To quarantine level-2 anomalies 2. To identify the level-3 anomaly (ie) the-one Once Zion has served its purpose, it is destroyed and rebuilt so that a new cycle is started

Again I must ask where the hell did you get this!

scientheist wrote:

The One : Like I said earlier, the one is a BUG in the choice mechanism. He is a level-3 anomaly. He is the most destructive to the matrix and hence the problem must be addressed. There were 5 ones before and Neo is the sixth one. In case of Neo, it took 100 years for the one to be identified. So I'd say that same pattern followed for his predecessors (which ofcourse is subject to debate). Once the one is identified by the machines (the other two agents flee, who identify the one), Zion is attacked with 250,000 sentinels digging into the earth. The one believes in "free-will", but in reality there is only "determinism" and "fatalism" and "inevitabililty" and NO free-will. Because all other doors are closed, the one is forced to walk his destined path. The one tries to reach the source where "the path of the one ends". But before reaching the source, he meets the architect, who explains the purpose of anomaly. Nobody knows who the anomaly could be, but because of the fake prophecy, the one is led to the architect. The architect then offers two choice to the one. Either let the humans survive through the matrix or let the matrix get destroyed and as a consequence, let the human race get extinct. All other ones chose to repeat the cycle by letting Zion getting destroyed and rebuilt, but Neo chose to save Trinity.

No bug. See above on “The One”. Each anomaly reaches the architect before the source and is given a final choice. Neo was no different with the exception of his personal love for Trinity and his power to overcome the cycle of the matrix.

scientheist wrote:

The program anomaly Smith : Smith develops human attributes despite the fact that he is a misanthropist. Smith chose exile because he believes that he was destined to rule the matrix. Smith wants to take over the entire matrix. When Smith was destroyed by Neo, some of Neo's anomalous behaviour got into Smith and some of Smith's power (perceiving the machine world) got into Neo

Smith is not so much the opposite of Neo as he is the dark side of Neo. When Neo destroyed Smith after he was "reborn" they joined together as one entity. Everything that has a beginning has an end. The true "one" that could actually fulfill the prophesy is the "one" of Smith and Neo combined. Perfect Dark and Perfect light together as one. This occurred when they joined the first time. Smith himself said something is different this time. His interactions with Neo evolved him in a similar fashion to Neos own evolution. He is Neos Dark side. Together, they are the true one. Once combined they formed the true one that brought an end to the war as the oracle predicted

It was Neos sacrifice of himself that destroyed Smith in the end. His pure act of selflessness was Smiths downfall. That represents Christ’s time on the cross. He gave of himself so others could be free. Christ sacrificed his life on the cross to take away Lucifer’s power and render him impotent just as Neo sacrificed himself to defeat Smith and free Zion. Smith wasn’t able to copy Neo in Revolutions just as he wasn’t able to do it in Reloaded. Neo allowed it to happen. It was the ultimate sacrifice for Zion. It represents Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for mankind to be free of sin. The act of the sacrifice is what ultimately destroys Smith.

scientheist wrote:

There have been explicit references to "machine world". Since this term is more general, I'll use the term orange-matrix. Orange matrix is similar to the matrix (or green coded matrix), but the fundamental difference is that the orange-matrix represents something which exists in the real world. All the locations of the machines in the real world is mapped into the orange-matrix. My opinion is that the orange-matrix is a huge network used by the machines so that they can easily communicate with each other and with the source and hence become a single entity. One only power can control machines in the orange-matrix and that is source. In M3, it is implied that Deus-Ex-Machina has control over the sentinels (they stop attacking when Neo made the deal). Note that there is no choice mechanism in the orange-matrix. So Neo was able to see only what is shown to him (objects) and not the code which makes up the images (as in green-matrix)

WHAT? Orange matrix. Where did you come up with that one? The real world is the real world. Neo is not only going through a time of “lucid dreaming” evolution but in parallel he is going through a period of actual mental evolution in the real world. Remember that we like machines are made up somewhat of electricity. Humans function on bioelectricity. Neo has learned to harness this in the real world to defeat sentinels. It the evolution of the mind.

The machines by definition have to function on some level through a network. Think of them as walking computers. Its natural for them to all be networked together through some type of wireless network. Thus the head machine (dues-ex-machina) simply commanded the sentinels to stop their attack through a network in THE REAL WORLD!

scientheist wrote:

Neo's powers in real-world : At the end of M2, when Neo took the other door, the architect predicted that the matrix is going to crash which would lead to the end of the human race. But Neo got powers instead, powers which no other One ever had...the power of the source itself. Neo was able to give life to Trinity and bring her back. In a sense, Neo became God. When Neo destroyed Smith, something of Smith got copied into Neo as well. The code for perceiving the machine-world is copied onto Neo which enabled him to see the machines without his physical eyes. Since Neo is able to have some of the powers of the source, (though not exactly as equal to that of source)... Neo is able to exert control over the sentinels like the source. Thats how he prematurely triggered those fleet of tow bombs

See above. Did you miss something here. Of course Neo became godlike. After all he is “The One”.

scientheist wrote:

Significance of "Left door" : Its still not clear how Neo was able to get some of the source's power, but I'll try to explain with this little fact (I'd be grateful if anyone would explain this to me with a better theory). In M1, when Neo was fleeing the agents, he took the right door instead of the left door. Then he took the "other left" door which led him to room 303. (a bit of numerology, 303 => 3+0+3 = 6, implying Neo as the sixth one). The left door was hopeless, because it led to his death. But instead of dying, Neo discovered the power within him and became the-one. Similarly in M2, the left door which leads back into the matrix was hopeless, but instead of letting Trinity die, he discovered a greater power within him...the power of source

Not the power of source. Where do you get your conclusions from? He was going through an evolutionary process as I said above both as a Lucid dreamer and as an evolved human in the real world. His attempted passage through the right door in the first was symbolic of the cycle of the matrix. His eventual passage through the left was symbolic of his power over the matrix. If he had chosen the right he would have lived but he chose the left and went on to his destiny to destroy the matrix. Smith is an integral part of that destiny as I explained above.

What are your thoughts?

Starbuck

Wow! You actually read all of his stuff and answered it? Most people couldn't be bothered to read beyond the "levels of anomalies" hocus pocus! I'm impressed. Not only that but I agree with every one of your answers. (In face I hadn't thought about the clouds causing interference - that's a good answer thanks!)

Mucho respecto. Let's hope scientheist comes back down to earth now....

Before I start, read the choice theory fully and all other linked theories, I've provided more clarifications. The full-theory is deliberately kept concise because I've already discussed how I arrived at the theory in seperate posts. To understand them, u must read the entire linked thread. This full-theory is just a summary of my other theories. So instead of saying "where the hell did u get that ?" read the theory fully and then put your argument. I also said "dont do selective reading" !

starbuck wrote:

Zion is a real place. Neo is human. The machines gave the humans a choice - enslavement or extinction.

I agree with all of them.

starbuck wrote:

A sanctuary? No – that was an unconditional surrender.

Ok, but how do u explain the "truce" in SR2 ? How do u explain the levels of survival ?

starbuck wrote:

It is impractical for the machines to rise above the clouds because of the severe magnetic and electrical disturbances at that layer.

Why do u want machines to rise ? It could work the other way... they could erect long poles and either use lightning arresters to harness the energy (in future they might develop this) or use solar panels on top of the poles. The machines could stay in the surface and get the energy. Electrical and magnetic disturbance affect only electronic circuits, not electrical connections (like solar panels etc.)

Other possible levels of survivals for machines...

* they could use wind mills

* they could plug apes in the matrix

* they could use geo-thermal energy

* they could use nuclear energy

starbuck wrote:

Where did you get this wild claim of levels of anomalies?

Read the theory fully. I've provided more explanations. Also read "Brain in a vat" skepticism. I also said that choice is used in two senses...u ignored that ! If u dont go by my choice theory then u provide an explanation for people who believe that there is something wrong with the world and for Morpheus and Trinity who are capable of BENDING the rules of gravity. By ur argument, only the one should be able to "lucid dream" and the rest (like Morpheus) should accept the matrix as it is. It makes no sense.

starbuck wrote:

The anomaly and the persons who reject the program are two different entities, and there is only one anomaly per version of the matrix.

How do u say that ? Where is the proof ? Where is the deduction ?

starbuck wrote:

The machines don’t create a new matrix every time the code is inserted into the machine. It is simply upgraded.

Ok, ur argument does seem sound, but I never got into that issue (as far as I can remember). You have'nt made two things clear...

* What is the life cycle of each Zion ?
* If it is less than 100, then how do u account for 250,000 zionites coming from just 23+1 individuals ?

If the life cycle of Zion is 100 years and there is only upgrade and no reboot, then present matrix year 1999 minus 500 years (100 years for prev 5 matrix versions) would be 15th century. Lets say the choice based matrix v1.0 is in 15th century. Then there will be a one and he must be unplugged. If he got unplugged would he believe in all that machines,sentinels,hovercraft,computers crap ? How does it function ? You have'nt made that clear.

starbuck wrote:

The events that take place in the current incarnation of the matrix are not necessarily the events that took place in former incarnations.

Firstly there is no proof to what u say and u havent mentioned how u deduced that. I'd say that only version 6 is unique because of the addition of Smith ("Not exactly as before"). Thats why Neo is unique and not like the rest of the ones, thats why he chose the left door (I explained his choice for left door in one of the links, did u read that ?). Thats why the matrix is not reloaded again, but there is a "revolution" in the matrix.

starbuck wrote:

There was no gifting of anything.

It all depends on the perspectives. I see it as gift because of the huge infrastructure and the recycling systems necessary for sustainability of life, you see it as "no other way". We'll leave it at that.

starbuck wrote:

You just stated that Zion is the former zero one and now you say its unclear how it was formed? See

I meant the first-ever Zion council who unplugged humans from the matrix and made them believe in a fake war. I speculated that UN leaders formed the first council, there is no reference in the movie.

starbuck wrote:

The machines built the matrix to enslave the humans and use them for energy.

Where is YOUR proof ? The machines have levels of survival ! Watch the SR2 closely, they did sign a truce. Moreover the machines could extract power by simply plugging the people in (as shown in SR) and not keeping them in pod. They could feed the humans and then force them to plug in their power-producing machine. They could have treated humans like slaves, not give them a world to live.

starbuck wrote:

Again I must ask where the hell did you get this!

Again I must ask u to read all the links fully before raising a question like this ! Its logically deduced, one theory is built over the other and makes perfect sense. I also said that if u dont buy my theory, u provide an alternate solution. How do u explain the purpose of Zion ? Why should it be destroyed and rebuilt when the one reaches the source ? Why should the "last human city" should be rebuilt with the AID OF MACHINES ? How do u explain prophecy being a form of "control" ? You answer that before u call my theory wild !

starbuck wrote:

No bug. See above on “The One”. Each anomaly reaches the architect before the source and is given a final choice. Neo was no different with the exception of his personal love for Trinity and his power to overcome the cycle of the matrix.

You said "no bug" and u neither gave an explanation nor spoke relatively to "bug". In case u dont know computer jargon, a bug is a logical error in a program.

starbuck wrote:

Smith is not so much the opposite of Neo as he is the dark side of Neo.

Smith is an anomaly as I clearly explained in the linked post.

starbuck wrote:

When Neo destroyed Smith after he was "reborn" they joined together as one entity. Everything that has a beginning has an end. The true "one" that could actually fulfill the prophesy is the "one" of Smith and Neo combined. Perfect Dark and Perfect light together as one. This occurred when they joined the first time. Smith himself said something is different this time. His interactions with Neo evolved him in a similar fashion to Neos own evolution. He is Neos Dark side. Together, they are the true one. Once combined they formed the true one that brought an end to the war as the oracle predicted

where is the proof ? Smith is an anomaly, Ok, I knew that even before I saw revolutions. The rest of the thing u say is just dogmatic. How do u explain Neo's quote "the prophecy is a lie Morpheus. The one was never meant to end anything. Its all another system of control". How do u explain the prophecy itself ?

starbuck wrote:

The act of the sacrifice is what ultimately destroys Smith.

Yeah, u could draw parallels on religion and bring abt any conclusion. What abt Trinity's death ? What abt the zionites killed in fighting the sentinels ? If u observe clearly, every one who has served their purpose is no longer needed. That applies to the keymaker, Trinity, Neo,previous Zions etc.

starbuck wrote:

WHAT? Orange matrix. Where did you come up with that one?

Read the link. I spend so much time on analyzing the bits and peices of the matrix, computer science and philosophy and all u say is "Where did you come up with that one?" ! I've explained orange-matrix clearly in the linked post.

starbuck wrote:

Neo has learned to harness this in the real world to defeat sentinels. It the evolution of the mind.

No proof! may be u r the one who should come down to earth !

starbuck wrote:

The machines by definition have to function on some level through a network. Think of them as walking computers. Its natural for them to all be networked together through some type of wireless network. Thus the head machine (dues-ex-machina) simply commanded the sentinels to stop their attack through a network in THE REAL WORLD!

I've explained that clearly in the orange-matrix theory.

starbuck wrote:

Of course Neo became godlike

and dont tell me this is a fantasy movie !

starbuck wrote:

Not the power of source. Where do you get your conclusions from?

If u understand my other theories, this is obvious. How do u explain Trinity's rebirth ? How do u explain Neo controlling the sentinels in the orange-matrix ? Dont just raise questions ! give me answers too...I had spent an hour in this post !

I don't know what twisted view you have of "brain in a vet scepticism". All brain in a vat scepticism says it that we cannot be sure of any of our perceptions being about the things we think about. This can include our own bodies. The only thing we can be sure of is our thoughts (hence "cogito ergo sum" or "i think therefore i am") As a result we could just be brains in vats - or people in the matrix.

Trinity is never reborn. She was resuscitated in reloaded and died in revolutions.

He has read all your explanations. It is just that your theories are incomprehensible. We believe that this is because they have nothing to do with the movie. If you want to prove us wrong you will first have to come down to our level and talk in clear, simple English.

Even your objections to Starbuck are unclear since I still don't see what problem you have with his views about the movie.

HAHA starbuck got owned baaad, oh well....

In order for all of us posters here at matrix-explained.com we must watch the version of the trilogy the Wachowski's made solely for the Indian audience.

Quote:

I've explained that clearly in the orange-matrix theory.

Dude, you have posts 10 pages long and you haven't explained shit!

Hehhe.... Now I know everything... I got really everything....

Hahhha... impressive!

I talked with God....God has infinite sense of humour Haahhhahhha.... I still laugh!

Hehhe... I know who I am and Why I am here...

I can announce all human race a future made of happiness....

Just decode my message... and you will feel happy forever delivering your and mine superpowers!

I am 41th!

Universe=Greek pi elevated Greek pi

Solution of this dilemma is

1st rule: Love eachother like a God!

2nd rule: Be able to get from others Love!

3rd rule: And you will deliver my power in your body!

My name is Fabio!

Send this to the Wachowski Bros!

Scientheist,

I dont have the inclination or the time to go chasing your wild theories all over this board. They ramble on for pages and mean nothing. I expect you to defend yourself on this thread.

scientheist wrote:

Ok, but how do u explain the "truce" in SR2 ? How do u explain the levels of survival

Dude you have got to be high! What Truce? That was an unconditional surrender by humankind in order to keep from being exterminated.

The exact wording is as follows:

Victorious, the machines now turned to the vanquished (to Vanquish=To defeat or conquer in battle; subjugate) they had found an ultimate and readily available power supply. humans were an endlessly multiplying and infanately renewable energy source. (this is the reason they choose to use humans as power over anything else. They decided it was the most logical choice.

and during the surrender the machines state:

hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you - we demand it.

Those are not the words of one side of a peace treaty. That was a surrender and to prove their point the machine self destructed showing that if they did not comply the humans would be exterminated.
The cities were not destroyed by the machines. They were destroyed in the WAR!

scientheist wrote:

Read the theory fully. I've provided more explanations. Also read "Brain in a vat" skepticism. I also said that choice is used in two senses...u ignored that ! If u dont go by my choice theory then u provide an explanation for people who believe that there is something wrong with the world and for Morpheus and Trinity who are capable of BENDING the rules of gravity

As I said before Im not chasing your "theories" all over this board. Defend yourself here. Morpheus and company are able to do the things that they do because they are aware of their environment. They are able to bend the rules as any dreamer can that is aware they are dreaming (for example the dreamer that knows he is dreaming is able to wake himself up.) Neo on the other hand is a lucid dreamer and able to shape his envoronment to anything he chooses.

Once again I ask that you defend your levels theory here on this page and not avoid the question by referencing something else.

scientheist wrote:

Ok, ur argument does seem sound, but I never got into that issue (as far as I can remember). You have'nt made two things clear... * What is the life cycle of each Zion ? * If it is less than 100, then how do u account for 250,000 zionites coming from just 23+1 individuals ?

the life cycle will vary from version to version. It is counted, as the Architect says, from the emergence of one anomaly to the next one.

23+1 builds a deep enough gene pool to start a new population. Each male mates with each female and on and on until a solid population is created. combine this with the freeing of persons from the matrix builds the population to the current number at the time of Neo's emergence.

scientheist wrote:

Firstly there is no proof to what u say and u havent mentioned how u deduced that. I'd say that only version 6 is unique because of the addition of Smith ("Not exactly as before"). Thats why Neo is unique and not like the rest of the ones, thats why he chose the left door (I explained his choice for left door in one of the links, did u read that ?). Thats why the matrix is not reloaded again, but there is a "revolution" in the matrix

This is deduced from the Merovingian being surprised as Neos strengh and the Godels Incompleteness Theorm. Each time the Matrix is upgraded it is newer and events unfold differently as they are played out. Also In the former Matrixes "The One" experienced love in a general way and not a specific one as Neo did for Trininty. The strengh Neo had to obtain in this latest upgraded version was rubed off on Smith in some way we can not explain causing them to be yin and Yang of each other. The two together became the true one to over come the cycle of the Matrix as I explained in my first post.

scientheist wrote:

I meant the first-ever Zion council who unplugged humans from the matrix and made them believe in a fake war. I speculated that UN leaders formed the first council, there is no reference in the movie

I explained this above and in my first post. There was no peace - only surrender. No councel - only a delegation of the vanquished.

scientheist wrote:

Where is YOUR proof ? The machines have levels of survival ! Watch the SR2 closely, they did sign a truce. Moreover the machines could extract power by simply plugging the people in (as shown in SR) and not keeping them in pod. They could feed the humans and then force them to plug in their power-producing machine. They could have treated humans like slaves, not give them a world to live.

Proof is above. This does not even deserve an answer beyond "whatever".
What do the machines levels of survival have to do with anything?

scientheist wrote:

I also said that if u dont buy my theory, u provide an alternate solution. How do u explain the purpose of Zion ? Why should it be destroyed and rebuilt when the one reaches the source ? Why should the "last human city" should be rebuilt with the AID OF MACHINES ? How do u explain prophecy being a form of "control" ? You answer that before u call my theory wild

Zion is left to run until the probability of disaster of the matrix becomes to high for the machines comfort. Zion is the choice to "wake up" if the dreamer becomes aware of his environment. Thats the purpose behind the blue and red pills. its your last chance to decide to wakup or stay asleep. Zion is a real place created, possibly as you say, from zero one or maybe some other way. We do not know who or when it was created. We only know that it exists as a sanctuary for rebel humans.

Words from the architect prove this.

As long as they were given a choice, even if they were aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. while this answer functioned it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute and escalating probability of disaster.

He never says failure but disaster meaning the humans could at some point overcome the machines if left unchecked. so as they become strong enough to become a theat they are defeated. This happens in conjunction with the emergence of the humans own version of a savior. IE the systemic anomaly (Neo).

scientheist wrote:

You said "no bug" and u neither gave an explanation nor spoke relatively to "bug". In case u dont know computer jargon, a bug is a logical error in a program

WHAT! you said bug not me. (And by the way I am a Network and software engineer so I know what a bug is.)

I refuted your claim of a bug with my claim that Neo is the result of an incompletness theorm inherant in any system. Please see my first post on "The One" and review your own theories before defeating yourself again.

scientheist wrote:

Smith is an anomaly as I clearly explained in the linked post

Wrong. Defend your theory here in this post.

scientheist wrote:

where is the proof ? Smith is an anomaly, Ok, I knew that even before I saw revolutions. The rest of the thing u say is just dogmatic. How do u explain Neo's quote "the prophecy is a lie Morpheus. The one was never meant to end anything. Its all another system of control". How do u explain the prophecy itself

The prophecy was not a lie. That is my proof. Did the war not end and did Neo (The One) not end it. Then the prophesy is not a lie. Neo only thought it was a lie because it did not come out the way he thought it should. The system of control gave them the illusion that the one would end it with the meeting with the architect. The Oracle went beyond that. She saw the anomalies getting stonger with each version of the matrix and she knew that one day they would overcome the system. The architect cant see past any of his choices, you remember. He is blind to the fact that an end is coming. the Oracle sees this just as she saw the way to stablize the matrix in the first place.

scientheist wrote:

Yeah, u could draw parallels on religion and bring abt any conclusion. What abt Trinity's death ? What abt the zionites killed in fighting the sentinels ? If u observe clearly, every one who has served their purpose is no longer needed. That applies to the keymaker, Trinity, Neo,previous Zions etc

Now I must ask you for proof of this. My god man the movies are heaping full of religious overtones. Christian, Buddist, Islam, Hinduism etc. Neo as the Christ restores Trinities life just as christ did for Lazaris. These are all subject to the interpretations of personal preference. I cant see where you draw the conclusion of purpose in fighting a war in Zion.

scientheist wrote:

I've explained orange-matrix clearly in the linked post

Agian I am not chasing theorys all over this board. Explain them here.

scientheist wrote:

No proof! may be u r the one who should come down to earth !

Let me spell it out for you. A quote from the Architect:

And although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.

It is obvious that Neo (the human) has had his consciousness altered during this process of evolution. See the incompleteness theorem for clarification but it is obvious that as he has gained strength in the matrix. He has also gained strength in the real world. Each Anomaly is stonger than the last as evidenced by the Merovingians comments that Neo is stonger than his predecessors. He has evolved in such a way as to control electrical impulses in a way to disrupt the machines just after the destruction of their ship in the real world.

The end of the Animatrix shows how the world looked after the war and the building of the pod towers for the humans. It also shows the experimentation of the machines on the humans to get them in the pods and asleep. It is so obvious that the world of Zion is REAL.

scientheist wrote:

and dont tell me this is a fantasy movie

Hmmm... I dont ever remember mentioning that. What is your point here?

scientheist wrote:

If u understand my other theories, this is obvious. How do u explain Trinity's rebirth ? How do u explain Neo controlling the sentinels in the orange-matrix ? Dont just raise questions ! give me answers too...I had spent an hour in this post !

power of the source? you must explain this. Again Im not going to chase it.

I explained Trinity resurrection (not rebirth) above as well as Neos control over the machines in the real world (not the orange matrix).

Here are your answers. Sorry you have taken so much time to piece your flimsy theories back to gether.

Starbuck

star buck,
Neither do I have the time nor the interest to repost every theory, If u r not interested
in arguing lets leave it alone, I dont have time to re-explain/re-post every theory and if u think my theory sucks lets not speak abt it. I'm already spending too much of time here in the forums, I've got lot of work to do, I dont think I'll return here and post new theories in future. And by the way thanks for your explanation for truce, the only thing I agree abt ur explanation

for the rest of the guys,

levels of anomalies : There are more than one anomaly ("those that refused the program, while a MINORITY"). They are logically grouped into levels based on their ability to "lucid dream". Neo is the most powerful lucid dreamer

Orange matrix : Read Simulacra and Simulations, Orange matrix is a simulation in neo-real state and green matrix is a simulation in hyper real state.

Zion : My Zion theory that 01 became zion was wrong. However, the fact that the war is over is proven. You can find it in the rudimentary script of M1 (but this is not found in the movie). So Zion is a form of "control".

Quote:

He stands over the body of Morpheus, as his anger boils up out of him. CYPHER You see, the truth, the real,truth is that the war is over. It's been over for a long time. And guess what? We lost! Did you hear that? We lost the war! TRINITY What about Zion? CYPHER Zion? Zion is a part of this delusion. More of this madness. That's why this has to be done. It has to end. Now and forever. She suddenly sees the entire dark plan. TRINITY Oh my God. This is about Zion. You gave them Morpheus for the access codes to Zion. Cypher walks away from Morpheus and bends down next to Apoc's body. CYPHER You see, Trinity, we humans have a place in the future. But it's not here. It's in the Matrix.

and sorry coz I'll not be replying in the future. I've told u what I know, its upto you guys to decide whether my theories are right or wrong (though I've given adequate proof and explanation). I've got lot of work to do and this discussion makes me lose concentration in my work. Bye !

Thanks scientheist, you just did all of us a favor by deciding to stop consuming matrix-explained.com's valuable server space. And that lame sorry ass excuse for leaving? I mean, "this takes concentration from work"....please! You should've said "I don't want to get my ass kicked anymore", cause we might have believed that.

Quote:

The prophecy was not a lie. That is my proof. Did the war not end and did Neo (The One) not end it. Then the prophesy is not a lie. Neo only thought it was a lie because it did not come out the way he thought it should. The system of control gave them the illusion that the one would end it with the meeting with the architect. The Oracle went beyond that. She saw the anomalies getting stonger with each version of the matrix and she knew that one day they would overcome the system. The architect cant see past any of his choices, you remember. He is blind to the fact that an end is coming. the Oracle sees this just as she saw the way to stablize the matrix in the first place.

You're right, in some way. The Oracle made up the prophecy and told it to Morpheus, because she knew Morpheus well enough to know that he was a dreamer, and that he would believe it so blindly he would never give up in his quest to find "The One". There is no evidence that the same prophecy was made in the previous versions of The Matrix.

Remember The Oracle was "playing a dangerous game" by helping Neo.

oscargabrielp wrote:

Thanks scientheist, you just did all of us a favor by deciding to stop consuming matrix-explained.com's valuable server space. And that lame sorry ass excuse for leaving? I mean, "this takes concentration from work"....please! You should've said "I don't want to get my ass kicked anymore", cause we might have believed that.

I've gotta build a protocol for my project...after that we'll see whose ass gets kicked...so far no has proven me wrong and none of ur guys theories have any logic or meaning in it

But technicaly the prophecy was true because The One did end the war and in some way destroy the Matrix, or rather what it stands for as now i gather people will have a choice to stay in it or be set free.

I thought you didn't had time to post anymore

Apparently none of our theories make sense and scientheist is the only person with an adequate sensible theory. If that is the case why does no one understand his theories?

Am I alone here? Does ANYBODY know what he was on about?

Help me to help you!

I am the one!

I know that!

Give this message to the Wachowski!

If you don't want to understand, this planet will be destroyed!

"There are level of survival" is a word from the other unverse that is trying to help us... We must understand it!

Read everything you see with your eyes starting from this moment!

My name is Fabio!

Fanta-Bio-logy!

Rah=Dog=Sun
Rah=Dog=Sun
Rah=Dog=Sun

Scienthiest.

I am truly dissapointed. I truly thought you were up for more of a debate than that. I have read through most of your theories but I feel it is unfair to reference other posts in your debate with me. It is lazy debating and I find it lacking in any effort. I have posted my threories here in full detail with my proofs behind them and you have not.

It seems you have lost both the heart and the Passion for your theories you once had. I dont claim to have all the answers by a long shot but I think debating is one of the best ways to bring out a solid theory. The challenge is to show why you believe the way you do while at the same time considering others views. This process will either make you reconsider your theories or prove your point of view.

scientheist wrote:

levels of anomalies : There are more than one anomaly ("those that refused the program, while a MINORITY"). They are logically grouped into levels based on their ability to "lucid dream". Neo is the most powerful lucid dreamer

Your evaluation of "The Matrix of Dreams" essay was way off. I didnt find a single reference of levels of lucid dreaming. This is an example of the wild conclusions you draw from no evidence. These movies are based in scientific and philosophic theory and nothing more. Your gravitation to invent conclusions that dont fit the facts or even the suggestion of facts baffles me. Now you conceed before you even defend yourself.
That is not an individual working from logic but from insanity.

scientheist wrote:

Zion : My Zion theory that 01 became zion was wrong. However, the fact that the war is over is proven. You can find it in the rudimentary script of M1 (but this is not found in the movie). So Zion is a form of "control

WHAT! You ramble incoherantly! It seems that the more you post here the more you conceed your own points. Sorry but I dont consider the script canocial. You must base your theories on the movies only (and the animatrix). Even so what does the quote you outlined prove. That one madman (cypher) considers the war to be over. He is referring to the futility he feels in this battle as well as the original war that mankind lost agianst the machines that led them to be imprisoned in the matrix. He has given up - nothing else. He justifies his betrayal by stating that it is for the good of man because there is truly not hope. this is his view of the world.

oscargabrielp wrote:

You're right, in some way. The Oracle made up the prophecy and told it to Morpheus, because she knew Morpheus well enough to know that he was a dreamer, and that he would believe it so blindly he would never give up in his quest to find "The One". There is no evidence that the same prophecy was made in the previous versions of The Matrix.

You are right but I submit that if there was no prophesy to drive the one to the source in the former versions what motivation would he have? I feel it is logical to assume that there was a prophesy in the former matrixes just as in this one. It just spanned all of its existence vs just from version to version. The Oracle saw this coming but did not know exactly how it would play out.

scientheist wrote:

I've gotta build a protocol for my project...after that we'll see whose ass gets kicked...so far no has proven me wrong and none of ur guys theories have any logic or meaning in it

OK - bring it on. But I have not conceeded a single point yet and since this thread has started you have conceeded three points. I rest with that.
I have seen followers of your theories on the board so I know you have supporters. Dont feel that I am picking on you. I am just interested in an honest debate. I feel your theories are completely off the wall and not based in any fact or have any basis in the intent of any or your reference points.


Lairbox2:

I am sorry your mother didnt love you and that you are now in a nice white room with the nice white clothes with extra long sleeves that connect behind you. Please continue eating your jello and smashed veggies.

I didnt think that assylums like yours allowed computers but I must be wrong. Must be a special privledge for you since you have the mind of a 6 year old. Have you learned to go potty by yourself yet? I would think not.



In any case. I will wait and see if the Scientheist comes back.

Peace and good debating

Starbuck

PS - if anyone else has a threory that does not conform to any of mine please bring them to light. I would love to hear other opinions and debate them as well.

Could scientheist be a Wachowski brother just fucking with our minds?




There's not another explanation as to why someone would post theories as pathetic as the ones he's been posting. Of course you can always say he's stupid....but this is just too much!

Does anyone agree?

This whole ordeal seems stupid, but nonetheless interesting!

Scientheist, From reading several of your older theories, as well as your general one, it would appear that you are making assumptions too quickly and without any solid proof, older versions of the script are not really evidence in which to base a theory, but may give clues away.

It also seems that you take things in a very literal sense (e.g. Cypher's talk about the war being over) which of course would create a huge amount of confusion and misunderstanding, and that is probably your main problem.

Your ideas have 'potential' they just need rethinking and further evidence to back them up.

Wow this is fun, I feel like a teacher lol

:p

Just wanted to let you know that I'll be posting my final analysis essay some time soon.

starbuck wrote:

oscargabrielp wrote: You're right, in some way. The Oracle made up the prophecy and told it to Morpheus, because she knew Morpheus well enough to know that he was a dreamer, and that he would believe it so blindly he would never give up in his quest to find "The One". There is no evidence that the same prophecy was made in the previous versions of The Matrix. You are right but I submit that if there was no prophesy to drive the one to the source in the former versions what motivation would he have? I feel it is logical to assume that there was a prophesy in the former matrixes just as in this one. It just spanned all of its existence vs just from version to version. The Oracle saw this coming but did not know exactly how it would play out.

Good point.

oscargabrielp

Looking forward to it.

Maybe I will try and do something simular. I have been compiling theories and they are starting to jumble up in my mind. Putting them down on paper might be good.

Later

Starbuck

Looking forward it to it too.

CrossFade wrote:

But technicaly the prophecy was true because The One did end the war and in some way destroy the Matrix, or rather what it stands for as now i gather people will have a choice to stay in it or be set free.

That's what I feel. The Prophecy was true all along and it existed during the time of each previous One. Neo's incarnation of The One FINALLY fulfilled it. He ended the war, which was the TRUE purpose of The One as told by The Prophecy.

By the way, Starbuck... you did a good job in disecting Scientheist's posts.


What is the Matrix