»Why not set the matrix in the medieval time?«

You know, I'm wondering why the Architect didn't decide to set his matrix in the medieval time. That way, if someone doesn't accept it and somehow get out of it, he or she would be overwhelme with all this incredible technology which wouldn't be understandable to his or her eyes! That way, the excluded probably wouldn't be able to form a stand against the machine, not even knowing how it is possible to pilot a ship to fly, how to regulate machines to make air or filtrate water, etc. The control of the machine would be even more powerful! What do you think?

You see the whole Zion vs machines war is fake. Zion is a form of control. For the fake war to exist, people of Zion must understand computers and machines etc. Thats why the matrix is "REDESIGNED to this...peak of your civilzation". I'd presume that the first matrix was something like the eden garden. (I've explained my matrix theories in my other posts...read them, u'll understand why...

The Matrix existed in the year 1999. We dont have hover ships and vast underground cities etc. So in essense they were learning totally new technology. The height of civilization was chosen to keep humans as busy as possible with their lives so they had not time to contemplate the meaning of the universe so to speak

Starbuck

Well said Starbuck, beat me too it!

rock on! [/highfive_with_phoenix]

Zion isn't fake!

Keanu Reeves himself has pointed out that it would be pointless for it to be the matrix to be a box inside another box.

Besides after the kid gets out in the way he does wouldn't he be going "hang on a minute" in he still felt just as strange in the "real" world?

---- Back to the subject in question. I can fit my answer in with the previous answer, since he is half-right.

The new matrix is meant to be simulating the peak of our civilisation. The only thing missing from it is "reality" itself. Unlike the dream world that the original matrix was our world contains all the evils of reality - pain, suffering, toil. So it still contains the potential for people to learn to use machinery.

The machines don't want to be cruel and if they don't make the world reasonably realistic people won't stay asleep.

But the more realistic answer is because it looks cooler to have fancy machinery.

Edit- while I wrote this several other opinions appeared - in other words I am damn slow!

Who the hell said Zion was fake?

Starbuck

starbuck wrote:

The height of civilization was chosen to keep humans as busy as possible with their lives so they had not time to contemplate the meaning of the universe so to speak Starbuck

What u r saying is that the people must be kept busy so that they dont ponder over the truth... What if the matrix is set in 10000 B.C ? obviously there were no civilized people in that time and the people lived in ignorance. That would have served the machine's purpose if what u said were true.

starbuck wrote:

So in essense they were learning totally new technology.

To learn a new technology, they must know the basics of an existing technology..thats why the year 1999 was chosen

scientheist,

You take the term civilization to literally. The height of civilization means they are buried in the menusha of the day. just because someone does not have technology does not mean that they do not ponder their own existance.

I have no clue what your saying in your second argument? what is the point there?

Starbuck

Beacuse it would've sucked!

To starbuck,

I also said 10000 BC ! Think abt it... I wonder whether the language we speak was fully mature... as far as I know there are literatures dating back to 2000 B.C. but donno if anything existed before that. (There are vedas of indus valley civilization...but they are I guess from 7000 B.C, not sure though) Think abt anthropology, think abt how languages evolved think abt how civilizations evolved... you'll understand what I'm trying to say. In the beginning man lived in ignorance, like animals. Man then evolved into a sentient being because of his reasoning.

Say u need to drive those hovercrafts....then u must know how to fly a plane (20th century technology)

ahhhh.... hello. man is evolved and sentient! what makes you think he will accept a program that is milleniums in his past any more than he accepts a program that is a perfect world!

The brain knows the difference.

Starbuck

Um... in case you still care about the answer to that question....


Scientheist said that the war between the machines and zion was fake.

But then again he talks a lot of rubbish which i cannot begin to read without a shiver going up my spine. How crazy is this guy?

first read what I said ! then read my theory fully...dont do "selective reading" ! 1999 was chosen to facilitate "fake war". Your argument is pointless and makes no sense.

Ok, I didn't know my question would generate a debate like that and I realize I might not have been clear enough. First of all, I consider that the movie didn't lie to us. That Zion is really the real world and not, a MIAM. Also, I forget all the theory about the fact that you need to have a Neo who will save the world and get 23 people to rebuild Zion while the matrix will be reloaded to avoid a crash. I put myself back at the beginning of the first matrix, in the architect's mind. Of course, the Eden garden might not have worked out because it was too perfect, without violence and such. But, I question the fact of making the matrix in the year 1999. Of course, for the movie, it is cooler that way but, it might not have been the best thing to do. If you set the matrix in the medieval time or even further back like someone else suggested, in the prehistoric time, you would have violence and all, combat between individuals but, you would also have a lack of knowledge from the different human beings which would make them unable to think about the possibility of the matrix (no real religion or philosophy or science)...In 1999, we lived in a technological world so, we had already a great imagination and it was possible for us to think about the existence of a matrix. And a human being who would woke up and see the real world, the machines and all, couldn't survive long after having spent his life hunting animals. He wouldn't know how to find others and deconnect them like Morpheus or the others did. He wouldn't know how to survive in that world since hunting is no longer a possibility...Therefore, he wouldn't be a threat for the machines...

<ahhhh.... hello. man is evolved and sentient! what makes you think he will accept a program that is milleniums in his past any more than he accepts a program that is a perfect world! >

Well, it seems that the machines can wipe the memory just like Cypher asked in the first movie so, that wouldn't be a problem...But, since the humans are grown...every new baby is not evolved like you mention it at its birth. A baby will evolve to be what his parents will make him...So here, the baby will live in the prehistoric time (or medieval like I first said as an example) and won't be aware or our history of technological advances... He will accept it as it is...

Fatpie42 wrote:

Zion isn't fake! Keanu Reeves himself has pointed out that it would be pointless for it to be the matrix to be a box inside another box. Besides after the kid gets out in the way he does wouldn't he be going "hang on a minute" in he still felt just as strange in the "real" world?

Zion is no less or no more real than the matrix. It is the real world but as morpheus says "what is real". It only has a clear definition for the obsever.

Regarding what you say about the kid - don't you think that the "hang on a minute" is pretty similar to what happens with Neo and the squiddies at the end of revolutions - when he puts himself into a coma and goes to the train station I think this is pretty similar to how the kid ecsapes the matrix.

Be carefull though! I am not saying that Zion is a Matrix, its not! the matrix is a copy / simulation / reflection / analogy / metaphor for the real world.

Think about it - I am not saying this is the only way to interpret the movies but if you try to not take the films so literally then it all makes sense to me.[/quote]

In response to the original thread....

You are correct - it could be set in the another genre - it would all make sense - but the peak of our civilisation makes perfect sense to me as in the late 20th centruy we have so many distractions less people would ever question exitense and rise up as an anomoly.

The possibilities for writing the environment for the matrix are endless.

First off, you cannot assume in a thread that isn't based on it that there is a MwaM unless you let everyone know in your post, hehe. No where in the original post does it mention it, so don't answer assuming thats what its about, i think thats how topics get so miscontrued like this one.

One simple answer to why there didn't set it in medievil times.

Quote:

The height of civilization was chosen to keep humans as busy as possible with their lives so they had not time to contemplate the meaning of the universe so to speak

-Starbuck

Watch the Animatrix, Beyond. It begins and ends with watching people do the 'rat race'. The Matrix was picked to be the 'peak of modern civilation' for a reason. Everyone is so busy making money to live, making money to spend, that very few are able to contemplate the true meanings, and the inner truth.

Not to mention, if you were to set humanity's Matrix in a time that was so far away, the splinter in their minds would be bigger. You needed to give them something that was the closest to what they could subconciously remember.

And an obvious flaw also stands, with a human egg population as large as it is, you'd need to set them in a time of a large population. 10000 B.C. or whatever you suggested does not fit this requirement. And don't say, well the Machines can create whatever Matrix they'd like; because there will be a larger splinter in their mind, and it will cause more problems than its worth.

Quote:

Say u need to drive those hovercrafts....then u must know how to fly a plane (20th century technology)

Why? If you are in the Matrix, a training program can be loaded into your mind. But, you are basing your beliefs off a MwaM theory, and that isn't the topic here. Of course we'll never agree about this, because it is based around MwaM theory.

fatpie42,

yes his theories are way out there and yes, Zion is real just as Neo is human.

riouxda wrote:

starbuck wrote: <ahhhh.... hello. man is evolved and sentient! what makes you think he will accept a program that is milleniums in his past any more than he accepts a program that is a perfect world! > Well, it seems that the machines can wipe the memory just like Cypher asked in the first movie so, that wouldn't be a problem...But, since the humans are grown...every new baby is not evolved like you mention it at its birth. A baby will evolve to be what his parents will make him...So here, the baby will live in the prehistoric time (or medieval like I first said as an example) and won't be aware or our history of technological advances... He will accept it as it is...

Who said that the machines were not lying about erasing his memories. They might not have that ability. I know that is a leap but its possible.
In any case he had the ability to break out of the matrix before so with his memory erased he would come to the same conclusion again that the matrix is not real. I dont think the machines were going to put him back in but instead kill him.

In any case I think humans would have as hard a time accepting a world where technology does not exist as much as one that is perfect. At some unconsious level they know were they are and in turn that facilitates the choice. you would see many more breaking out of an ancient matrix than a modern one.

Starbuck

The whole point of "kid's story" and the original movie "the matrix" was that there was something lacking from the matrix which the real world provides. What the matrix warriors gain from reality is worth fighting and dying for. That is why they can't be fighting for a fake Zion, it would make the war pointless.

starbuck wrote:

They might not have that ability. I know that is a leap but its possible.In any case he had the ability to break out of the matrix before so with his memory erased he would come to the same conclusion again that the matrix is not real. I dont think the machines were going to put him back in but instead kill him.

I'm not sure i totally agree simply because of the Architech's last line in Revolutions.

Oracle- "Do I have your word?"

Architech- "What am i human?"

I think dishonesty is something that humanity created, and is something Machines cannot understand. So they wouldn't lie to Cypher in my opinion. But, like everything here, its just an opinion. [/quote]

Phoenix,

Good point, you could be right on that one.
I think they are basically honest.

Like I said - it was a leap.

In any case I wonder is the machines were betting on the fact that
he would never make it through the defection alive and therefore never
have to fullfill their promise to him.

Starbuck

starbuck wrote:

Who said that the machines were not lying about erasing his memories. They might not have that ability. I know that is a leap but its possible. In any case he had the ability to break out of the matrix before so with his memory erased he would come to the same conclusion again that the matrix is not real. I dont think the machines were going to put him back in but instead kill him. In any case I think humans would have as hard a time accepting a world where technology does not exist as much as one that is perfect. At some unconsious level they know were they are and in turn that facilitates the choice. you would see many more breaking out of an ancient matrix than a modern one. Starbuck

Well, again, I must say that it is possible that the machine lied about the fact of being able to erase the memory but, as I said before, I consider first that the movie doesn't lie to us. So, if agent Smith said they could erase his memory, I suppose they could. And you can also assume that maybe they would have killed him but those are assumptions, we don't know if it's true or not. Also, what is it with the fact that human wouldn't accept it on an unconscious level? You think that when a new baby is born, he is aware in an unconscious level that we live in a technological era? So, you mght be right for grown up humans that we would try to put in the matrix, it is possible that their subconscious would tell them that something isn't right but, that would be true for the first crop...not for the new born babies in the matrix. And also, saying that they wouldn't accept it is also an assumption that we can't be sure of. But anyway, this is just a movie and that's not the movie that we have and also, it is just an idea I had like that and I thought it'd be fun to see what you guys thought of it!

Riouxda,

Your right of course. We can never know truly why they picked 1999. I assume that the machines have some knowledge about the essence of the matrix and its interworkings that we are not aware of. We must assume that there is a good reason for them choosing that era.

Maybe the original matrix that was a perfect world was in those times.
who knows.

We probably never will.

Starbuck

Choosing a Medieval time period isn't about 'erasing memories' IMO. The thing about people who do not accept the Matrix is more instinct. They feel that something is wrong, they don't know necessarily what is wrong but they feel that it is wrong nevertheless ala Neo in M1. Setting people in Medieval times would heighten this sense of 'wrongness.' This (speculating here) lead to poeple such as the kid freeing themselves from the Matrix.

The case with the Kid has baffled me slightly. Just how did he do it? Neo said "You saved yourself." Perhaps such a heightened refusal of the Matrix can lead to people 'waking up' like the kid.

I agree with everyones' views on why it is set in 1999. People are extremely absorped in their lives business etc. Any later in time would be too close to the war with machines, even leading to a humans vs machines war in the Matrix itself (would that be interesting!) but mainly any later and people may become more suspicious. Any earlier and probably less people would accept the Matrix