»de-ju-vu. The Incoming-Incoming scene is shown twice«

If your look carefully – “At the end of MATRIX RELOADED there is a lot of scene-jumping between ships, locations and times”, then your must make a note that scene when Axel (onboard the Vigilant) scream: "Incoming. Incoming! Incoming!" show twice. But first he run OK (draw attention what Morpheus (off screen) say in this time) and second time flight of stairs are break. Recall scene of de-ju-vu from M1. It can mean only that world of Zion – Matrix too. At this moment it was make momentous decision – kill command of captain Soren and so lure, compel Trinity come to Matrix.

Sorry for my english…

But they would have been killed by the bomb anyway.

I never believe in Matrix-inside-matrix theory, until read this post.
I looked at M2, and indeed the scene is shown twice. The only
possibile explanation is that M2 had to be changed to attend a
purposed line of facts..

(sorry also by my english)

I've only seen Reloaded once, but if what you're saying is true, this must prove the Matrix within a Matrix theory..

Wasn't the first 'incoming' just to want about the sentinels? like 'Lookout! squiddies are coming!' and the second time was to warn about the bom they trew?
Although I've seen Reloaded a billion times:p I don't quitte remember these details:s

Evil clone wrote:

Wasn't the first 'incoming' just to want about the sentinels? like 'Lookout! squiddies are coming!' and the second time was to warn about the bom they trew?

Yeah, looks to me like this, too. The first one was "Squiddies", he runs over the bridge and deplaces the screw (or whatever) and the second time the bridge breaks down.

CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!
You've got a sharpe vision! EXCELENT!!!
I will watch tonigh again to see this scene.

My english really is the worst!!! :-)

I have watched both scenes over and over again. There are two things I would like to mention.

First in this sequence, the events in the Soren’s ship are in contrast to the Morpheus speech.

Morpheus: “There are no accidents. We have not come here by chance. I do not believe in chance. When I see three objectives, three captains, three ships. . .I do not see coincidence. I see providence. I see purpose. I believe it is our fate to be here. It is our destiny.”

As you`ll certainly notice, Morpheus is bragging about “Fate, Predetermination, Providence”.

Meanwhile in the Soren`s ship -from now on please read carefully -the two remaining crew hear the alarm, one of them rushes to the upper deck, as you see he has an external fixation on his leg and “limping”, thus exerting more force on the catwalk, which pipes are already corroded and loosening the screw. In the following scene, he’s coming from the control room - where they monitor the surrounding activity -, shouting incoming, he’s running in the opposite direction, when reaching the section with the screw causes the catwalk to break.

Coincidence - “limping, Corrosion, Operator’s chair under the exact breaking point”, or it was all predetermined?

Now if you have read the scenes of Soren`s ship, you`ll know that it`s not the same incoming scene repeated.

Therefore it could not be considered a “déjà vu”, if so it was the absolute prove for the MWAM or ZIAM theory. Sorry to disappoint you.

add knnknn

Quote:

But they would have been killed by the bomb anyway.

How do you know that? I could give you enough supporting facts - look at the stand still position of Soren’s ship, on the ledge, the bomb is whirled before procection, is it only adding to the acceleration or the bomb is only projectile without a tracer mechanism…but it all be speculation.-

I don’t say that they would have definitely escaped, only not that "they wouldn’t have been killed anyway".

Por favor, deme noticias si encontrarás algo más.


Admás, mi español es peor……..

Strav wrote:

I never believe in Matrix-inside-matrix theory, until read this post. I looked at M2, and indeed the scene is shown twice. The only possibile explanation is that M2 had to be changed to attend a purposed line of facts.. (sorry also by my english)

I too hate the MWM theory, it's just too easy a cop out.

So I am reluctant to add fuel to the fire, but this might...

Morpheus: "All of our lives, we have fought this war. Tonight I beleive we can end it."

(Cut to exterior of hovercraft)

Morpheus: "Tonight is not an accident"

(Cut to interior of hovercraft, guy with leg brace hobbling along catwalks)

Morpheus: "There are no accidents"

(Cut to rusted section of catwalk, jarring loose as guy steps on it)

(Cut to Meeting inside Matrix)

Morpheus: "We have not come here by chance. I do not beleive in chance. When I see three objectives, three captains, three ships, I do not see coincidence, I see providence..."

(cut to exterior, three squiddies moving in)

Morhpeus: "...I see purpose..."

(three squiddies get in position)

(cut to meeting inside matrix)

Morpheus: "I beleive it is our fate, to be here. It is our destiny. I beleive this night holds, for each and every one of us, the very meaning of our lives".

You know the rest.

a little later we see the squiddies throw the spinner and we get the second "Incoming" scene.

The scenes are different, in the first one the guy says "oh shit" and sets of to who knows where, the second time he says "Incoming" which he keeps repeating as he heads along the catwalk towards the loose section.

My point though is that Morpheus says "There are no accidents" and we are shown an accident waiting to happen.

I don't know how likely they were to escape the bomb, but if there was a chance, then it could be argued that the catwalk "accident" was indirectly responsible for Trinity entering the matrix and possibly the outcome of Neos door choice.

So some could argue that the accident was part of the grand scheme and so must have been controlled in some way from within the matrix.

I don't subscribe to this theory.

I would like to complement you on describing the scenes as in a true script.

Quote:

I don't know how likely they were to escape the bomb, but if there was a chance, then it could be argued that the catwalk "accident" was indirectly responsible for Trinity entering the matrix and possibly the outcome of Neos door choice.

I think this would be the point, contrast between Morpheus Speech and "Coincidence"

atreides wrote:

{lots of stuff}

Wow Atreides, looks like we replied at the same time with roughly the same answer.

My theory is that it was the "accident" that resulted in Trinity entering the matrix and consequently Neo chosing her over Zion.

Therefore it was random chance that prevented the "reload" that everyone keeps on about and not some grand scheme.

If the intention of the architect was for Neo to choose the source, why would they try to entice Trinity into the matrix. Just so she could confuse the issue?

atreides wrote:

I would like to comlement you on describing the scenes as in a scrript. Quote: I don't know how likely they were to escape the bomb, but if there was a chance, then it could be argued that the catwalk "accident" was indirectly responsible for Trinity entering the matrix and possibly the outcome of Neos door choice. I think this would be the point, contrast between Morpheus Speech and "Coincidence"

And again, this is getting spooky.

marl64 wrote:

Morpheus: "There are no accidents" (Cut to rusted section of catwalk, jarring loose as guy steps on it) ... So some could argue that the accident was part of the grand scheme and so must have been controlled in some way from within the matrix.

So it could have been bane who went into the ship (when it still was docked) and screwed the crew by screwing the screw.

@knnknn

Would you please add some Smilies to your statement, so we won`t get screwed.

What magic is this Bane able to...., I`d like to hear your theory about the corrosion, since Bane knew to loose which screw.But did he also broke the crew`s leg, or is it part of the "Loose Screw" grand scheme theory the sequel to the famous theory "Screwballs"-not your theory I know -?

No mockery, only Satire.....Peace

1) Most probably the former Ones chose to save Zion
2) Probably Neo chose the left door because of Trinity
3) Trinity wouldn't have enetered if not "screwed by screw"
4) Thus it's probably somthing that NEVER happened before.
5) Thus it could be ex-Agent "Not exactly" Smith

knnknn wrote:

1) Most probably the former Ones chose to save Zion 2) Probably Neo chose the left door because of Trinity 3) Trinity wouldn't have enetered if not "screwed by screw" 4) Thus it's probably somthing that NEVER happened before. 5) Thus it could be ex-Agent "Not exactly" Smith

Four out if five aint bad.

You just need to shake the idea that everything that happened was engineered from the machine world and accept the possibility that an accident (random chance) can change the world.

marl64 wrote:

accept the possibility that an accident (random chance) can change the world.

So how does that fit with
Morpheus: "There are no accidents"

knnknn wrote:

marl64 wrote: accept the possibility that an accident (random chance) can change the world. So how does that fit with Morpheus: "There are no accidents"

Morpheus was wrong.

"About a great many things"

In a word "Irony"

marl64 wrote:

Morpheus was wrong.

So the Wachowskis planned it as sarcasm to make Morpheus look like a fool?

No, I believe the Wachowski's planned it to show that everything is so integrated and connected, so cause and effect, that even accidents are predetermined and unavoidable. It was fate that those events occurred.
They could not have NOT occurred.
In fact, in such a situation, the events which seemed to be random in the movie, were in reality predetermined(and staged!) by authors from our world.

Ogami Itto wrote:

No, I believe the Wachowski's planned it to show that everything is so integrated and connected, so cause and effect, that even accidents are predetermined and unavoidable. It was fate that those events occurred. They could not have NOT occurred. In fact, in such a situation, the events which seemed to be random in the movie, were in reality predetermined(and staged!) by authors from our world.

You are a genius. The real world in the movies is OUR world.

So Zion is so to speak "within a matrix", because it is a part of the movies called the matrix.

Neo understands in the end, just as Morpheus and The Oracle have, that they are part of a story.

Quote:

Quote: marl64 wrote: Morpheus was wrong. So the Wachowskis planned it as sarcasm to make Morpheus look like a fool?

Does a Believer like Morpheus with so much value seems to you a "fool" only because his believes are proven wrong?

Are his believes proven wrong or not........Nevertheless an admirable "character", do you think without his persistence, all of this could have existed.......

Have you ever considered Morpheus is also "Another system of Control", and when he says he fights for us, he is referring to us as "machines".

Regards,

Atreides

Yes, Morpheus is just as much a level of control as the oracle. By being so strong in his belief, Morpheus made everyone else believe the same thing, and thereby fulfilling the prophecy of The One.

Regardless of what the theory is about, I find it wrong to talk about people in Zion as machines. After all the blood we have seen outside the matrix, it seems logical that they are not more cyborg than the plugs in their body. The rest of the body reacts the same way a human body in our world would. So they can be seen as "human" wheter Zion is real or not. You would not find any metal in a body in the matrix either, so the same goes for them. They are not machines. They may be programs, but not machines.

The Architect says that the difference between Neo and the other Ones is that he shows love in a different way. As this has not happened before, none of the plot involving Trinity has to be a part of the path of The One. That makes Morpheus the man that made it happen.

You can't call anybody a fool because of their beliefs, I have certain beliefs and have been laughed at because of them, but it doesn't make me any less a believer, it is my depth of conviction that drives me on...Like many other people...If you absolutely believe in something then NOTHING is going to come between that, not even a mistaken prophecy.
Look at Christians for a start at the end of every century they have believed that the second coming was upon them ~ it has never happened, yet they STILL believe....