»de-ju-vu. The Incoming-Incoming scene is shown twice«

Strav, it is ignorant to think that the W brothers weren't influenced by religion, especially since one of them has a degree in theology. In fact, the W brothers have mentioned time and time again that their movie is heavily based upon Christianity. Now, if you've read some of my posts, you will find out that I am in fact atheist. But that does not make the matrix any less interesting. In fact, it makes it more interesting to find parallels with, what I like to call, modern mythology. There are actually "religious studies" courses in college that actually use the Matrix as an analogy for relative content, and I joined that group when they went to see Reloaded as an extra credit assignment. During the wait for the movie to start, they explained to me many of the parallels, and since then, it has been clear to me that the matrix can almost be predicted if one knows the bible well enough. So please, show some respect towards those of us who actually enjoy discussing the ideology of the matrix, it seems you are only taking these films literally when there are many ideas behind what is going on.

Strav... stop showing your complete and utter ignorance on the subject. I, personally, cannot believe that anyone can truly be atheist. There is so much evidence to the contrary... whether it stems from complexity and beauty of life, or from humans inborn conscience. I don't think I have ever met someone so "hopelessly dependant on the system." You are about the most close-minded person I have ever had the displeasure of talking to.

HolEavataR wrote:

Strav, it is ignorant to think that the W brothers weren't influenced by religion, especially since one of them has a degree in theology. In fact, the W brothers have mentioned time and time again that their movie is heavily based upon Christianity.

I am not criticizing the religious discussion inside the film paradigm, I actually find
it is pretty cool (for example, the parallel between Eva and Adam paradise and the first perfect matrix). I am condening the visually clear oportunity some people is taking to spread religious crap inside here.
We find thinks like " the Lord is glory, and this movie.." , "I believe that our God is a god of Love and you shall love Him too". This is what I call crap.

Stinkz said : " believe that there is a God. I believe that this God is a God of love. I know that I know right from wrong, whether I chose to do one or the other. I believe that he gave us the Bible as his word. Its teachings are sound and are proven correct every day. "

some posts ago, thats what I call religious crap.
Why saying some thing like that ? what does that contribute to the discussion ?
This has no glue of film paradigm. Just evangelic stupidness...

I could give million arguments to show that the bible sucks, so does god, jesus and all other every line of those ambiguous and generic profecies. But I dont want to contribute anymore to discuss anything but the movies.

The Matrix films are not just based around Christianity, there are many other ideas and allegory running through them
Mythology, Ancient Beliefs, Sacred Numbers, Fadic Numbers,and alot of play on words and mystery.
This is why The Matrix has captured so many imaginations, because it is full of everything - and something will ring a bell with someone.
We are on a learning curve - a new way of getting a very old message across this is what makes this good story GREAT...
There is something for everyone...

Dear Strav and Stinkz,

you both share different opinions regarding religion but, although I share Strav's views on religion, that does not mean that gives you the right to call the Stinkz's beliefs stupid. And the same goes for you Stinkz. You should respect Strav's beliefs as well. We are in a forum to intelligently discuss the Matrix and some ideas happen to be based on religion. This should cause us to discuss religion in the context of the Matrix, not name-call eachother because we don't share the same religious beliefs.

HolEavataR wrote:

This should cause us to discuss religion in the context of the Matrix, not name-call eachother because we don't share the same religious beliefs.

Thanks HolEavataR. I got a little angry because this is the 3rd website I try to
participate and try to contribute with good analisys , and this religious problem always drive me nuts. They area all around and dont respect the purposes of
such forums.

For what its worth, I am ceasing this off-topic arguing.

BTW, I rewatched Reloaded, and indeed it does not seem to be a dejavu

strav, you stated your belief... that God, Jesus, and everything religious is all a crock. My point was to provide evidence to the contrary. No matter how "stupid" you think I am for believing it, I believe it for reasons. You have stated no reasons for believing what you believe... you believe it because it is what you have been taught. Stop sticking your fingers in your ears and try listening to an opinion other than your own.

Thank you HolEavatar... you made some good points. However, I do not believe that I should have to just hand out respect to everyone who claims to have an opinion. Respect must be earned. Strav makes blanket claims and has no evidence to back them up. He just calls everyone stupid in hopes that people will think he is smart... I have no respect for someone like that.

Strav... I did not come to this site to evangelize... I came bringing my theory about the matrix. Its in the "a good theory... find holes" thread. However, a few of us got on the topic of religion. I am always open for a discussion of my beliefs... apparently you aren't.

Now, kiss and make-up! heheheheh

atreides wrote:

@cul8er marl64 and I have dissected this sequence to the point that there remains little if no doubt at all, that this in not a dйjа vu. I would like you to read our original replies once again. Atreides.

I read your original replies again, but don’t find deadly proofs that this scene not a de-ja-vu.
You right, this episodes not absolutely identical. But they don’t must be such.

Recall, how in M1 Trinity explain what it is de-ja-vu. This is a bug in program (when Matrix changes something). CHANGE!!! Understand?! In de-ja-vu scene (M1) we are see a black cat. Twice! And in both time all things identical. OK! But Matrix nevertheless changes plan of building. Simply we don’t see these changes. It happen off-camera. In Reloaded these changes show to us. We are see these changes and some peoples out of scene probably experience the sense of de-ja-vu.
What the Matrix change? First – position of operators. Second – strength of bolt.
Why? In order to lure Trinity in Matrix. Why? I don’t know. I.e. clearly, in order to don’t reload the Matrix, but why?

So, I think these episodes (in M2) don’t must be identical.

More by token, you write “I too hate the MWM theory…”. I think it does not do some estimates starting from your subjective predilection.

YES PLEASE.
If you want to argue about religion go somewhere else. I'm tired of people who clais the matrix 'helps' their particular beleif. I think The matrix is clash of mythologies (Christian, Hindu, Greek, Norse, Egyptian)
and you should take the oportunity of the Matrix to explore those mythologies without dis-respecting someone's beleifs.

NOW back to the matrix questions.
That is NOT A DE JA VU sorry.
THOUGH I STILL BELEIVE ZION IS a MwM.
I also beleive
NEO WAS MENT TO TAKE THE LEFT DOOR cause the machines know that Neo is the only one who can stop Smith. NEO's real purpose is to destroy smith and the merovingian and in exchange maybe the machines will finally free mankind or we'll be trapped forever in the Matrix.

SIDEBAR:
Argue religion somewhere else I could go round and round about certain beleifs, but keep them OUTSIDE of the forum please.
e-mail me if you do want to have an organized debate

Orpheus... no one thinks the matrix "helps" their particular religion. The matrix is a movie. It will not teach us anything.
A few of us got onto the topic of religion and humanities purpose in this thread. Is it a crime to discuss our purpose? The thing that I find cool about the matrix is that it provokes these types of discussions.
Your opposition to the discussion of religion or anything you do not agree with shows how closed-minded and "hopelessly dependant on the system" you are.

Release your anger! I find it amusing how most posters, including me, attack each others viewpoints about the matrix movies, religion, purpose and forum use.

If we were to debate them long enough, while everybody kept an open mind to the other viewpoints and took the time to learn why we have our own view, I think we would sooner or later see all sides as equally important. The discussions of this forum is only relevant for those who read them, and nobody else really knows or cares what we write.

But I like it when people are attacking eachother. I find it more entertaining. It also makes the poster more human to me.

To get back to the topic, have every misunderstanding been cleared up, and we have concluded that it's not a deja-vu?

The Matrix films are trying to teach us something - UNFORTUNATELY some of you have yet to see it.
Religion has reared its ugly head yet again..
Can,t you see by your constant attacks on each other how much your minds are in control of Religion, for Smiths sake - let us put an end to all this - My God is better than your God SHIT...The World and its peoples have been fighting over religion since time began - PLLLLEEEAAASSSE, We are in the 21st Century now and we appear to have not learned a thing, I know beliefs do figure in The Matrix, but please don't argue over the Net about it, respect each others point of view and lets get on with the job at hand.....LET US ALL BE FRIENDS....

"...I think we would sooner or later see all saides as equally important."

emp... the fact that people will never agree does not mean that each side of the argument is equally important. That just means there are people who don't know the truth. Undoubtedly there is truth, and it doesn't exist in giving up looking for it.

Another Smith... could you be any more hypocritical? How are we supposed to go about respecting everyones opinion when you say things like "religion has reared its ugly head" and call our beliefs "My God is better than your God sh**?" Besides, do you really think that you have opened your mind by deciding that what you have been taught by this atheistic society is true? I mean, have you ever done any research regarding any religion, or are you just spouting things you have heard? Our minds are not "controlled" by religion. We are able to discuss these topics while you call us names and never really think about anything.

@ STINKZ
OH,FOR SMITHS SAKE......
I am not a hipocritical - I'M JUST SICK OF ALL THIS .
I REFUSE TO BE DRAGGED ANY FURTHER DOWN WITH THIS SUBJECT-
We are supposed to be discussing the matrix and having some jovial banter, not FIGHTING over our MODEMS..... I was brought up with the Bible - I told you that before, and I'm extremely open-minded thanx very much. The comments about Your God is better than My God was just pure SARCASM, because that is what it looks like from where I'm sitting - For Smiths sake lighten-up...

YOU tell me that I call you names, after all the insults you've directed at me and other members- give us a break man, and yes I have studied religions- Why do you think I have this GOD AWFUL ATTITUDE... Go to Neo 100% Human, 100% Machine - I've put my last post regarding this matter there

If I had had a glue of how blind and dispersive werer Stinkz's posts, I had never
entered that arguing. He just CANT stop talking matrix-disconnected-religious-stuff and talk about the movie.

Stinkz, you've got 2 doors : the left you stop talking personal beliefs and get back to the topic. The right, you keep spending peoples time and make this the longest but the poorest thread in the whole site.

If you take the left door, what do you think about the "deja-vu-scene"? honestly, you are pretty inteligent, I although I am pissed off with you, I would like very much to hear you thoughts - ABOUT THE TOPIC.

You know what I've noticed about overly religious types... They feel the need to SAVE people, to deliver them from evil. So when someone speaks to them, not pushing their beliefs but more like stating them, they forceably pursue conflict until they either convert that person or that person decides it isn't worth the aggrivation. Stinkz, I've corresponded with you in many forum headers, all of which tend to lean towards religion regardless of the topic. Although I respect your beliefs, please talk about something else.

Another Smith, Holeavatar, and Strav (mainly strav)... what problem do you have with meaningful discussions about life and existance? I mean... if you don't want to talk about them... fine... there are many other threads. However, some of us, like atreides, marl64, and emp were having a discussion of differing beliefs regarding our purpose. However, for some reason, you guys feel you need to come in here and interrupt with your claims that we are somehow stupid for our beliefs having no information to back it up.

Hol... you don't get it do you? I am not looking for your respect of my views, though it is appreciated. I am speaking the truth as I see it. Some people on this forum have voiced their opinion and state it as fact and it is embraced. When I see something that is wrong, I fix it. If I am wrong, tell me... and I will fix it.

"they feel the need to SAVE people, to deliver them from evil."
well, what do you think evil is? I find the reason most people don't believe in morality and/or God and reject Christianity is because they want to do the evil they have grown to love. They do not want to have to conform to anyone else's standard... after all, that would mean that they are CONTROLLED. However, once you get past this, you realize that a certain level of control is necessary. Without any control there would be anarchy... and no one wants that. We need to get beyond the childish mindset that anyone in control just doesn't want you to have any fun. I happen to think that if God fully controlled my life that I would have the fullest life possible, not one restricted because God somehow doesn't want me to have "fun."

Hol, I appreciate your participation in the discussion there for a while. If it is the consensus to begin talking about dejavu, then so be it....

Dear cul8er,

cul8er wrote:

but don’t find deadly proofs that this scene not a de-ja-vu

Nobody was talking about “deadly proof”, merely "contradicting evidence" that this is not déjà vu. I presume all this arguments arises from the very fact that we do not have a mutual interpretation of the term “déjà vu”*.

cul8er wrote:

CHANGE!!! Understand?"

Let`s presume that I do understand what "change" means, then again I might not......

In Matrix movies, phenomenon like déjà vu, ghosts or aliens are explained as "changes" in the "program".

cul8er wrote:

In de-ja-vu scene (M1) we are see a black cat. Twice! And in both time all things identical. OK! But Matrix nevertheless changes plan of building. Simply we don’t see these changes. It happen off-camera

Dialogue from the Matrix Movie:

(Lafayette Hotel)
Neo: Whoa, déjà vu
Trinity: What did you just say?
Neo: Nothing, I just had a little déjà vu.
Trinity: What did you see?
Cypher: What happened?
Neo: A black cat went past us, and then another that looked just like it.
Trinity: How much like it, was it the same cat?
Neo: Might have been, I'm not sure.
Morpheus: Switch, Apoc.
Neo: What is it?
Trinity: déjà vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix. It happens when they change something.

Déjà vu* is a psychological term, or a phenomenon which basis are yet unknown. I.e. when you go somewhere you have never been to and meet someone who’ve never known, still you feel all these to be familiar, is referred to as déjà vu.

As I`ve said before In Matrix movies, phenomenon like déjà vu, ghosts or aliens are explained as “changes” in the “program”. In the Lafayette sequence, you see that Neo is experiencing “déjà vu”, by seeing the “identical” cat twice, surprisingly mentions it, and draws Trinity’s attention toward the fact that there must have been a glitch in the program, because she “knows” what déjà vu means in the Matrix.

cul8er wrote:

In Reloaded these changes show to us. We are see these changes and some peoples out of scene probably experience the sense of de-ja-vu

The similarity between those two scenes, being shot in similar angles, but obviously from different directions lead you to the conclusion that this is a “déjà vu”.

cul8er wrote:

So, I think these episodes (in M2) don’t must be identical.

1) In contrary to your statement, Déjà vu must be “identical” from the perspective of its sentient.

2) If this is in fact “déjà vu”, from whose perspective does it occur?

Since those scenes are not identical from our perspective, it simply is not a déjà vu from our point of view.

cul8er wrote:

More by token, you write “I too hate the MWM theory…”. I think it does not do some estimates starting from your subjective predilection.

Because I have never said or wrote that “I hate the MWM theory….” in the very first place.I suppose there is a misunderstanding here, although I would be delighted if you showed me where I have written that notion.

We have to wait till 05.11 to if this is in fact "déjà vu" or not.

Regards,

Atreides

dé·jà vu = n.
Psychology. The illusion of having already experienced something actually being experienced for the first time.

An impression of having seen or experienced something before

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French : déjà, already + vu, seen.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

atreides wrote:

cul8er wrote: More by token, you write “I too hate the MWM theory…”. I think it does not do some estimates starting from your subjective predilection. Because I have never said or wrote that “I hate the MWM theory….”

No, I beleive that was me, so allow me to field this one.

@cul8er

Your assumption is that my "hating the MWM theory" is the basis for my argument, and therefore is subjective. This reasoning is fundamentally flawed.

My oppinions regarding MWM are the result of objective analysis of the many posts on the subject, the "Hating" part was the outcome, not the framework.

I do NOT say the theory is wrong, I do imply however, that I would be dissapointed if it wasn't.

I give the Brothers more credit than that.

Quote:

Starv: Please guys, stop discussing religion ! This is a place to discuss Matrix, not fairy tales...

Let them be man ... If a moderator judges that this conversation is inappropriate he will contact the concerned parties.

Some people might be interested in these subjects. If you aren't, you are free not read.

In fact "the matrix" movies are tackling questions such as purpose, evolution and creation in a very similar way that religion does. Therefore some might want to talk about such questions in parallel with matrix discussion.

Let there be peace

(Please forgive my mistakes … English is not my primary language.)

ahem ... it also apears that I waited too long to post this message.

heh... a little late, but still appreciated.