»Is our current universe the 6th version?«

Is our current universe the 6th version? Have there been 5 universes before ours? I know this is pure speculation but I would really love to hear what others think.

I want to point out something cosmological, and I am sure others must have thought about this. (Please don't tell me I am really such a weird person to be the only one who have thought about this for the last 3 years).

Allow me to throw out some numbers. Our galaxy alone, the Milky Way, contains over 100 billion stars. (that's not an exaggeration). Our sun is only 1 of the stars. It takes over 200 million years for the sun to goes around the galaxy once. The last time the sun was where it is today, there were only bacteria on this planet, before there were dinasaurs. I find it very hard to comprehend a time scale of such magnitude. The galaxy itself would take light more than 20,000 years to go across.


I believe all the religion in the world, could not explain why the galaxy is so big, and that is just one galaxy in the universe. If we are looking at this world, there is no way we could figure out why the galaxy should be so large.

Then the Ultimate Cosmological Question is even more mind-boggling ... why is the universe only 15 billion years old? If the universe is "only" 15 billion years old, was there another universe before this one? If so, what happened to *that* universe?

Is our universe the 6th version? Have there been 5 other universes before ours? What happened or did anything go wrong with them? What was so special 15 billion years ago that caused the big Bang and brought about our current universe?


As you can see, no answer can be there, only pure speculation! But I am interested to hear what others think.

I hate it when this happens... Something I've read, or something I've heard gets me thinking...
And thinking doesn't get me anywhere, just to the point that "this is all too big to even TRY to comprehend!"...
I mean, the Universe isn't older than 15 billion years, just because "time", as we know it, started with the Big Bang.

Hmm, I really don't know much, but I'm also interested in hearing and reading more about it!

Lol...you wanna try understanding string theory, and the fact that we exist in one of what could possibly be trillions upon trillions of parallel universes. Fries your noodle dont it!

....humans where created on the sixth day. I think since the Matrix is so obviously related to the bible this has to do something with the sixth day of creation. Adam and Eve were created on the Sixth day.

But as in relation to our universe if you go by the bible this would not be the sixth day, in the bible it said that one day in the creation was equivelant to 1000 days. When it says on the first day it doesn't mean 24 hours it means 24000 hours. I think the Matrix movie is good because it in a way forces people who want to understand the Matrix more to read the bible (good job Wachowski's :]).

Hi CrossFade, thanks for your suggestion about looking into superstrings Actually, I have read Brian Greene's Elegant Universe about superstring and of course Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time. All these theory presuppose the Big Bang "happened" and the rest is history ... here we are 15 billion years later.

Hi Maxi005, I am very familiar with the bible, and I am sure it has nothing about the universe or any universe before our current one (if there is one before us, or 5 before us). I am not going to suggest all religions and philosophy are true or false (and I want to avoid any debate about a specific religion in this forum). As fas as I know, none of the religions could explain was there another universe before our and why the universe was "only" 15 billion years old.

However, I am *delighted* the other replier points out something I never thought about! Just because time as it appears to us has gone by 15 billion years from the Big Bang, that does not actually mean 15 billion years have gone by. We have no idea how "time" operates before the existence of human!

I'm not sure where I read this but there are theories that the universe is shaped like a donut. I forget the actualy geometric shape that is but yeah. The center is just a void we can't comprehend where the big bang took place.

I believe that the Universe could very well be the 6th one. A big bang occurs, the universe expands. Stars form, they die and exploded expelling matter, creating more stars, planets, solar systems, black holes, neutron stars, whatever. I belive there is a point though where gravity, the mystical force that keeps us in oribt, begins to effect things. Something pulls on something, combines, mass increases, and it allows it to pull on something else. I believe the universe expands, and then contracts once again into a small point of energy. This energy then explodes out creating a second big bang and a second universe. I believe this is a perpetual state that has been carrying on for god knows how long.

The Wachowskis matrix actually relates to gnosticism which is based on the Christian heresies. If you are a strong Christian I think you might be worried by a movie that gets large people interested in heretical myths....

But that's just my view.

triple-geek wrote:

Hi CrossFade, thanks for your suggestion about looking into superstrings Actually, I have read Brian Greene's Elegant Universe about superstring and of course Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time. All these theory presuppose the Big Bang "happened" and the rest is history ... here we are 15 billion years later. Hi Maxi005, I am very familiar with the bible, and I am sure it has nothing about the universe or any universe before our current one (if there is one before us, or 5 before us). I am not going to suggest all religions and philosophy are true or false (and I want to avoid any debate about a specific religion in this forum). As fas as I know, none of the religions could explain was there another universe before our and why the universe was "only" 15 billion years old. However, I am *delighted* the other replier points out something I never thought about! Just because time as it appears to us has gone by 15 billion years from the Big Bang, that does not actually mean 15 billion years have gone by. We have no idea how "time" operates before the existence of human!

Yep, time is a strange thing that has massive bearings on how we see the universe. the scary thing for me is that something daft like 95% of the universe is made of dark matter and we dont know anything about it!

You believe in dark matter? Oh I bet you do...

I bet you believe in quarks and string theory (where we there are 14 dimesions and we only see 3 of them) too don't you?

I found out recently that according to scientists the universe is supposed to be the colour beige! I am beginning to think that a lot of modern scientists are completely bonkers.

My reaction to quantum theory - Of course the particles don't KNOW where they are - they aren't sentient for goodness sake!
But if you think that they don't have an objective position and velocity at the same time then you are completely off your rocker mate!

...the Universe is a computer!, not one built by machines but a self evolving computational system. That is all it is, Life the Universe and Everything is nothing more than a finite source of energy and information where energy and be converted to information and vice versa. The transformation is done via a parallel state machine. Using a parallel state machine (as opposed to a Turing machine which is a serial state machine) it is possible to create any virtual environment. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON NOT TO ASSUME that the universe we live in is not just a parallel state machine. There are no real dimensions, forces, laws of physics they are just variables and logical constructs in the machine. There is no reality just virtual reality the whole universe is just a logical process and we are living in it. Super-stings and quantum theory do not have the full answer but its when we find out what lurks beneath these concepts that we may find ourselves living in some kind of Matrix. The question is "what is real?" do we really know? Even our minds are parallel state machines (portable Matrices?). If one can imagine building an artificial Matrix one can easily ask the question "are we living in some kind of Matrix"? How do we prove that we are not - we can't! Thats the great ting about the movies: they are about Philosophy so lets Philosophize!

Fatpie42 wrote:

You believe in dark matter? Oh I bet you do... I bet you believe in quarks and sting theory (where we there are 14 dimesions and we only see 3 of them) too don't you? I found out recently that according to scientists the universe is supposed to be the colour beige! I am beginning to think that a lot of modern scientists are completely bonkers. My reaction to quantum theory - Of course the particles don't KNOW where they are - they aren't sentient for goodness sake! But if you think that they don't have an objective position and velocity at the same time then you are completely off your rocker mate!

Yeah, and i give every particle a pet name! Beige? i read about that, scientists are indeed off their trolleys!

Um.... I'm not sure exactly what you are saying Scribe. Strangely enough philosophy requires a bit more than simply smoking a lot of pot. Here's a thread I tried to start about philosophy:

Hi Scribe, I guess you are referring to the universe as a celluar automa, where the universe is one big program ... I do not disagree with this view, let us assume that theory is true. My original question (speculation) about whether there were 5 other universes before the Big Bang is not about the nature of our universe (whether it is a big donut or not!). Rather I am intrigued as to what could trigger something so special 15 billion years ago. That means, if the universe is "only" 15 billion years old, as most scientists currently believe, why is our universe not 500 billion years old or older. Something special presumably triggered the big bang.

Hi Fatpie42, although I am very familiar with the bible, I want to avoid any debate on any single religion because I understand it can be a very sensitive issue for many people (especially if a person grows up believing one particular religion). In my posting, I purposely avoid stating my own religious belief. I am sorry that I must be missing something. If I misunderstand anything, please excuse me, because my question about OUR universe has nothing to do with gnosticism, nor do I lead anyone to any religious beliefs, either endorsed by a church or rejected as hertics by the Council of Nicene in 325.

Scientists say that space goes on forever, that sucks....i want to know what the edge is like, there has to be an edge. if there is'nt i'll not sleep ever again

seriously though, if space is infinite then who's to say that the 'big bang' is not happening right now in thousands of different places. we are so small we cant see outside our own. who's to say if we reached the physical edge of our universe we wont see other 'bangs' happening?

To Triple-geek

Was there another post that got deleted? My brief point about gnosticism and christianity was a reply to someone who said that it was good that the movies make people think about christianity. They were suggesting that it was a way to interest people in the Bible and I was pointing out that it actually directs people towards heresies more than modern church-based christtian views

I wasn't replying to your view about science and I accept that science and religion should be kept apart except when the methods of science are immoral.

The theory that our physical universe is the sixth version of the Matrix is interesting except that. . .The Wachowski Brothers didn't create the Universe! (Just Kidding)

Just to throw this out there, but what happened to the theory that time has a beginning? It used to be prevalent that because we know Time expands and contracts (in fact it is infinite at the event horizon of a black hole), the theory was that Time was non-existent before the big bang. Therefore, to talk of what happened before time existed was incomprehensible because in order for there to be a "before" there has to be a "time". Nowadays, it's all "parallel universes" and infinite big bangs! The only argument I've ever heard against the "Time has a beginning" theory is that it was a "cop-out."

So what was there before time? how can you have 'nothing' and then all of a sudden 'something'? This is where it gets in to the realms of 'God created stuff' and i guess that is seen as dangerous by scientists.

If there is no beginning to time then there is infinite regression. If there is infinite regression then we would never reach the present. We would have an infinite amount of time to get through before we could ever reach the present moment so it would never arrive.

Therefore time MUST have a beginning! Get round that one if you can hehe

CrossFade, I always get trouble sleeping when I start thinking about the Universe and everything, anything and nothing...

I mean, I recently read something about Black Holes that got me going was this:

Apparently, (as I got it), when a Black Hole forms, the mass collapses to something the size of an atom, keeps collapsing to something that is smaller than we can measure (how do they know this?) and finally, it has collapsed so far that it doesn't have any volume.
Because density=mass/volume and the volume is "nothing", then density will be infinite! I, for one (along with all my friends), can't grasp that...

I want to know so much! But the harder I try, and the more I read and "understand", the less I actually understand!

If you get my point? Hehe...

Hi CrossFade et all, thanks for all the opinions. One person thinks I was saying our current universe is the 6th version of the Matrix. No! That is certainly NOT what I mean. My original question (speculation) has to do with our current universe being the 6th version of the REAL universe. By "real" universe, I mean as real as we could get, whatever that could mean to us, but I do not mean the universe is a simulation from a machine somewhere.

My interest (again, speculation) is that *if* our current universe is the 6th version, and if it began with a Big Bang 15 billion years ago, then I assume something special happened 15 billion years ago. Because if the universe (our current one) is only 15 billion years old, it could just as well be 500 billion years old. Since it is not 500 billion years old, something presumably was very special 15 billion years ago.

Now, it used to be that Stephen Hawking pointed out that "time" really must begin 15 billion years ago, because anything that "happened" before the Big Bang could have no effect on our universe. There is a point of Singularity at the Big Bang, which in my geeky language, I would say the Singularity erased all previous infomoration and the universe is reloaded. (Excuse my Matrix metaphor, sorry, I just could not possibly resist).

However, if you think I have provided any satisfactory solution to my speculation, then I also agree with one of the other persons in this forum that Hawking's position, and those who agree with him, is a cop-out. To me, with all due respect to him, it is the ultimate cop-out. I might create a mathematical model where there is a Singularity at the time when the Noah flood occured and say that all previous information before the flood or before the Glacier Period, or before the Dinasaurs roamed the earth, would be erased and hence time began at the time of the Noah flood. That would not be very satisfactory to me! (Please note I am only using Noah Flood as a metaphor, don't take this too literally!)

Now, just when things get interesting, then Brian Greene and other scientists bring up superstring and the "theory/philosophy/dream" that there is a multiverse and our universe is only one of possible many parallel universes. (I like to say hello to my parallel self in some other universe but that can never happen, I wonder is he equally geeky?)

One person in this forum brings up the highly intriguing possibiity that if there is a multiverse (and I assume ours is just one island among an ocean of universes), then there could be big bangs happening all over the place! Oh my God! (or Oh my Matrix!) That would be the Ultimate twist in my speculation about the universe.

Hi Fatpie42, thanks a lot, for clarifying this up, I was just equally confused to the reference of religious beliefs in your earlier postings. I was confused as to how my question about the universe could possibly mislead anyone in this forum. Then, as you correctly point out, your posting refers to *somebody* else's comment, not mine! Ah, miscommunication, that's why we need a TrainMan to direct traffic of info!

Is there any proof for multiple universes? It sounds like a pile of horsesh*t to me.



If there were any other universes what makes you think any of them would have any life in them - do you have any idea how unlikely it was that life would appear in THIS universe? (Stephen Hawking agrees on that one btw)

I believe Nimmm stated that the universe is in perpetual expansion/contraction. This seems to tie in quite nicely with Triple-geeks question of could this be the 6th version of our universe. Only God knows how many times our universe has contracted and a 'bang' occurs. It could be millions of times it could be six, we dont know. i find it silly though to thing there is one 'bang' in the whole of 'space'. If it is indeed infinite and has no 'edge' as such i think if you could reach the edge of our 'bang' then we would see other universes in existance. my opinion thats all

Fatpie42 wrote:

Um.... I'm not sure exactly what you are saying Scribe. Strangely enough philosophy requires a bit more than simply smoking a lot of pot. Here's a thread I tried to start about philosophy: matrix-explained.com... If you are suggesting what I think you are then you are referring to Bekeley's philosophy where all that exists is ideas and minds. This view is actually seen by Berkeley as anti-sceptic. Since all we ever see is mind dependant perceptions then there is no reason to believe that there is anything beyond these. Matter is a complete absurdity since we never experience it - the closest thing to corporeality is the feeling of touch - this doesn't mean the sensible corporeal objects actually have anything to them beyond what we perceive. Since all things that we discover must be based on perceptions then there is no point trying to prove the existence of anything which is unperceived. It'll be nice to hear some philosophy for a change!

Philosophy is a strange thing, there are so many names like Berkeley and Descartes. I really don't know them and don't make a point of reading about them. Alan Turing created the idea of the Turing machine - a universal computer that could in theory calculate anything. The only problem with the Turing machine is that it could not cope with concurrency which I realized is essential for creating any form of virtual world. Hence I propose the parallel state machine: a simple extrapolation of the Turing machine. Alan Turing shook the world and because of him the Brits won world war II.I don't think the same was true for any of the other high flying Philosophers like Descartes etc who only served to produce egotistical texts suitable for parlour games! PS I don't smoke pot or indulge in any narcotics as you suggest! Philosophy is about the world we live in not some abstracted nonsense to impress your mates with!

PS the 42 in your nick is nothing to do with Douglass Adams I hope that would be too obvious!

A donut shape is called a "torus" by mathematicians and CGI artists.
Okay, my 2 bits about the Universe.
I don't think we need concern ourselves with religous explainations to the our creation. The function of religion and its professionals has to do with spiritualty and metaphysics and stuff, or something. Investigating the nature of our physical universe is the job of astrophysicists. Asking a priest or a shaman how the Universe works is like asking a proctologist how to build a rail gun.
Actually, the clergy being clueless about creation isn't universally accurate. The Hindus have a concept that Universe goes through cycles, the time period is measured in the billions of years if I recall correctly. Their explantion of the birth and death of the Universe is by far the closest thing to reasonable that I've ever heard from a large contemporary religion.
Or here's another explaination (I'm sure someone has thought of it before): the Universe is an organism. The big bang is its birth or awakenning, while the big crunch is the death or slumber. Its ecosystem would be a Multiverse. Various Universe entities may from time to time interact and swap matter and energy, thus allowing the seemingly ridiculous 4 billion year age of our planet, which based on the amount of heavy elements had to have coallesced from the remants of giant and super giant supernovea which in turn had to contain vast amounts of these heavy elements. Because heavy element nuclie only form during fusion, which we think only occurs within stars (and on Earth), the elemental composition of our solar system suggests that either the Universe is way older than 15*10^9 or the planets in our solar system got the motherload of heavy atoms which would constitute a statistical anomoly.
However, if our young universe recieved older matter from other universes, the 15 billion age wouldn't seem so crazy. Then again, if I were an astrophysist, instead of a programmer, 15 billion might sound quite reasonable.
Here's a practicle application related to the how's and why's of the 6th version or nth version of the Universe: once I rid myself of the burden of aging, assuming my body can survive up until the end of the nth iteration, how can or you or we manifest or enter the n+1th version? And will it be more fun than this one?

Hi, CrossFade, Scribe, TheEigenValue, et al

Thanks for all the inputs and suggestion to my highly speculative question. CrossFade, if there is a boundary to our universe, I believe that boundary would prevent us from ever coming into contact with any other universes out there (assuming there is indeed a multiverse, or parallel universe). TheEigenValue, for the same reason I just said, then it would be impossible for our sun in *our* universe to receive any matter from any other universe. I agree that my question about universe has nothing to do with religion. It would be like asking a dentist to fix my car! (not something I would recommend).

I must also point out even *if* there is a multiverse (pretend for a moment and go along with me for a short while), I would imagine the reason those other universes "out there" are different from our universe is that something *fundamentally* about the laws of those universes must be different from our universe. That would mean, for example, the speed of light, the Gravitational Constant, the mass of a proton, the mass of an electron, the strength of nuclear strong forces, etc. All those fundamental laws of physics in those "other" universes would be different from ours.

Hence, the boundary of our universe really is a true boundary that will separate our universe from their. I mean if our universe ever come into contact with another universe, which law would come into play? (the law of our universe or the other universe?) That would lead into a contradiction! Or in Scribe's model that our universe is one big Turing Machine, the machine will crash! It would not be able to decide should an electron obey the law in our universe or the other universe!

Alright, folks, I admit this is all pure speculation. But that is precisely why I *LOVE* the Matrix Trilogy. It opens a box to all the questions about the meaning of life, religions, philosophy, the universe, etc.