»Access codes, Cypher, and the Drilling«

Dialog between Cypher and Smith in the first movie:

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Cypher: Okay. I get my body back into a power plant, you insert me into the Matrix, I'll get you what you want.

Agent Smith: Access codes to the Zion mainframe.

Cypher: No, I told you, I don't know them. I can get you the man who does.

Agent Smith: Morpheus.
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Then later, when Smith is interrogating Morph:

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Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me or you're going to die.
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I'm lost, and therefore the following questions:

QUESTION: So in any of the movies did Smith (or the Architect) get those codes? (And what is the Zion mainframe? I hope this is not PROOF that Zion too is a matrix--I simply cannot digest that theory.)

QUESTION: Machines started to drill into Zion AFTER the access codes to the Zion mainframe or without them? If without the codes, why did they wait so long to drill into Zion? Couldn't they have simply drilled down and destroyed Zion in the very beginning?

QUESTION: If the machines did not get the access codes, how did they figure out where to drill? Or was Smith wanting to bring down the Zion mainframe---but what would have that achieved?

I believe that the Zion mainframe is hooked up to the Matrix. Because if it weren't there would be no way possible for Neo and the others to enter The Matrix from Zion. But I think the Zion mainframe codes may have some type of encryption so the programs from the Matrix can't have access to them. Zion may be connected to the Matrix but as Morpheus said whatever access they use isn't hard wired to the system, that's why agents can't take over Morpheus, Neo, Trinity, etc.

I'm thinking the machines got sick of trying to obtain the access codes and eventually decided to start digging. Or they maybe even stumbled upon it, they're machines they have their ways. I also believe that the attack on Zion was a type of black mail to force Neo to reach the source, and allow a dissemination of the code he carried.

Thx!
I just added some more content to my question above...

Basically, the questions are:

QUESTION: If the machines did not get the access codes, how did they figure out where to drill? Or was Smith wanting to bring down the Zion mainframe---but what would have that achieved?

QUESTION: Why did the machines wait so long to drill into Zion? Couldn't they have simply drilled down and destroyed Zion in the very beginning? Even before Neo got enlightenment and even before Smith got critically dangerous to even the Matrix?

QUESTION: So in any of the movies did Smith (or the Architect) get those codes? (And what is the Zion mainframe? I hope this is not PROOF that Zion too is a matrix--I simply cannot digest that theory.)

The Machines have destroyed Zion before, they know where it is cause they help re-recreate it each time (re: The Architects little speech to Neo in Reloaded). It's possible they wanted the current codes so they could bypass the defense system and make this "culling the humans" a little quicker and easier, but since they failed to achieve the codes and the next incarnation of the One has arrived they just start digging instead. Smith was just frustrated and impatient in M1 (proof of his sentient evolution that lead up to him becoming the big bad in the last movie?). Though I didn't get why Agent Smith tried so hard to kill Neo if the One anomaly was important to the continuation of the Matrix (maybe he just got sick of humans and killing Neo before he could disseminate the Source-Code would allow the Matrix to crash an end what Smith preceived to be a crappy existence?)

would not only be for zion's defense system, but would also be responsible for zion's life support systems (i.e. the engineering section of zion).

if the machines had the access codes to this mainframe, their plan to dig would not be needed.

this would mean that zion would be controlled by machines to some extent -that is until zion changed the codes. the machines however, would still now location of zion even though they could not shut down zion's life support systems.

the machines need to allow zion to exist because a choice must exist for the matrix to work. the only alternate choice for a simulation of life would be reality. it's not until an unbalancing anamoly appears in the simulation that machines set forth to destory zion. destroy zion and the choice is destroyed. set forth to destroy the choice and anamoly must return to the source to reset the matrix.

- drumcode -

Having read through all the answers in this thread I'm now even more convinced of the fact that there is not the best (and probably nil) continuity and flow of the story from M-1 into M-2_and_M-3.

1. Was there any indication in M-1 about previous ONEs?
2. Was there any mention in M-1 that the ONE had to go to the source to fulfill the prophecy---NO! All that was said was (via Morpheus):

"When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people. That is why there are those of us who have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix looking for him. I did what I did because I believe that search is over...."

3. Was there any mention of the Oracle being a program in M-1? In fact in the original script (which was changed when M-1 finally got into production), the Oracle makes her prophecy at the temple of Zion. I'm quoting from one of the first drafts (Morpheus again):

"...When he died, the Oracle at the temple of Zion prophesied his return..."

4. Notice how the "destruction" of the "Matrix" bit of the "prophecy" is conveniently "dropped" in M-2 and M-3 and replaced with "going to the source" and then ending the "war."

5. Notice how suddenly there are so many "exile" programs in M-2 and M-3... there was no mention of any such entity in M-1.

6. Notice that in M-1 there's no indication that the machines even know where Zion is... and that "access codes" to the "Zion mainframe" is projected in M-1 as the only possible way to get rid of the hackers.

7. Notice how Smith returns in M-2 and M-3... he was a popular character and the Wachowskis simply resurrected him and left the "reason" open to interpretation. Even Smith says "The reason I'm back is not important"... How convenient!

8. Was there any mention in M-1 of Zion having been destroyed and rebuilt so many times...?

And lots more... I can go on and on...

So M-2 and M-3 are fab... in their own way... but we lost the thread of the story somewhere...

zion is a creation of the machine, therefore zion's mainframe too
they dont need the code, they have it, but agents are not aware of this

Deep, I agree with you...

When M1 was first made, they couldn't be sure that there would be an M2 let alone an M3... so I think there's a disconnect between M1 and M2/M3.

I think a lot of things were still undecided in M1, which is why it's so ambiguous on many issues.

Also, M2/M3 were originally supposed to be just one movie, so a lot of filler had to be added in.

I agree whole-heartedly that there was job of keeping continuity between M1 and M2/M3. In fact, I don't think they ever reconciled why the agents are so determined to kill Neo when he is necessary to reload the Matrix. The only explanation I can give is that Smith seemed to be leading the Agents and Smith may have already been corrupted. Also, in the religious parallel, Neo's resurrection was way too early. They couldn't really rewrite that, but it goes to show that they weren't planning on making sequels at the time.

I liked how in the first movie, Zion was more of a concept, it was only referred to and never seen. I think making Zion more concrete instead of abstract caused a lot of the continuity problems. They should have kept it hidden, or only show Zion at the very end when the Machines breached the walls.

ok I posted this in another thread but here we go again... The zion mainframe is seperate from the matrix... Zionites cannont hack the matrix from zion...its just not possible they need to tap a hard line to do that. But the defensive systems in zion are run by the same program that runs the construct that zionites use to hack the matrix. (see M2 as the neb enters zion, the white room with the minotrity report style computers). If the machines can get into this system they can control the defensive and possibly other Life support systems in zionm which would make their job a lot easier when attacking zion.

They didn't explain any of this in M1 because it wasn't nessesary to make to movie flow... I used to say that it was a gaping plot hole but it like so many others didn't need to be filled to get to the point of this movie.

xshadow is correct.

To continue with his thoughts:

The agents are another system of control that have a purpose. Give as much hell to the hackers as possible. You cant have free hackers just running rampant in the matrix doing anything they want with out a control point in place. The agents are this control point. They keep the hackers at bay and keep them from doing anything they want. Part of their function is to try to track down the Zion mainframe codes. The machines dont have these codes but obviously they dont need them since they can bore in at any time they want. Its just another system of control to keep the free humans occupied.

many of the revelations in M2 were not revealed in M1 because it has its own set of revalations. The fact that man is slave to machine is a pretty big one. you cant give away all the secrets to the trilogy in the first movie because that would make for a boring second one. Did you know Vader was Lukes father in Star Wars- no. That was revealed in ESB. Did you know that Leia was Lukes sister in ESB - no. That was revealed in ROTJ. come on, its just stupid to think there is not continuity between the movies.

Starbuck

That Darth Vader was Luke's father was most likely "developed" at the time the sequel to Star Wars came out... There were so many possibilities after the first Star Wars... this one was developed...

Similarly, there were so many possibilities after the first Matrix... and the path which was taken resulted in a magnificent M-2 and M-3... BUT... the continuity was lost.

Watch out for Lord Of The Rings 3--now here's an example of continuity. And it stems from the fact that the larger story was already available when the first movie was presented... unfortunately this was not the case in Matrix---the larger story--or even the possibility of one---was missing during the days M-1 was being processed.

About deep's point 1 and 8 I do think that the many ones plot device was well introduced

Quote:

It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth: 'As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free.''

is proof.
It makes sense that he freed the first, they were the persons Architect talked about.And if you listen to the architect he says that the one's code only gets reinserted temporarily, so the past one doesnt die when he goes into the source.
If zion managed to have no contact with the matrix whatsoever and develop independently it SHOULD let humanity be free, but if the past one had seen zion being destroyed before, then he knew Zion wouldnt be free with matrix.

that brings another question, how was zion built? and why arent there any other cities? if they built another city that didnt have any relationship with the hackers, then humanity would always be safe.

i agree with point 2 and 4, it wasnt even mentioned that going into the source would destroy the matrix...you could argue that that bit was Morpheus'es addition..but i doubt that

I agree with point 3 too,because of another thing thing unanswered...what the heck were the potentials, and what happened to them anyway? potentials to become what?the one? it seems so, so it makes sense that they dismissed that plot device in the sequels.

Point 5 I agree with too; I also think the whole plot of the exhiles is a little forced...why would the source give the programs any choice?

Quote:

6. Notice that in M-1 there's no indication that the machines even know where Zion is... and that "access codes" to the "Zion mainframe" is projected in M-1 as the only possible way to get rid of the hackers.

hm..that got me thinking, the Sentinels break into the Osiris, why dont they take the commander with them to take the codes? it would never hurt to be able to manipulate zion

I agree wit point 7 too

also...Morpheus says Progarms cant equeal neo, but Smith beats him...hm....

Xshadow: you mean that the virtual control operators were born in the matrix and were hooked up when they welcomed the ships etc?

Darth is Luke's father? Damn! But they don't even look the same. . .

Quote:

you mean that the virtual control operators were born in the matrix and were hooked up when they welcomed the ships etc?

No Zion has a program running which opens the gates and potentially operates the outer defenses. This program is similar to the construct in M1 which is based on and around the matrix. Once agents (smith in M1) would have those codes he would have access to this program (which runs independently from the matrix)

(New thought: maybe smith knew that this program had no limitations and thats where he wanted to go with his potential freedom (I am referencing M1) )

Deep posted

Quote:

That Darth Vader was Luke's father was most likely "developed" at the time the sequel to Star Wars came out... There were so many possibilities after the first Star Wars... this one was developed... Similarly, there were so many possibilities after the first Matrix... and the path which was taken resulted in a magnificent M-2 and M-3... BUT... the continuity was lost. Watch out for Lord Of The Rings 3--now here's an example of continuity. And it stems from the fact that the larger story was already available when the first movie was presented... unfortunately this was not the case in Matrix---the larger story--or even the possibility of one---was missing during the days M-1 was being processed.

We must remeber that M1 was a story not about the matrix as a whole but about neo and the one.... the trilogy continued with this theme in mind. There a many plot holes due to this but it also leave way for many possiblities. Just like Star Wars has the EU now where untold stories are picked up by outside authors... The original trilogy gave a set of rules that starwars would be governed by from there you can make and base your assumtions as long as they don't interfere with what has already become a rule. Some people in the SW commuity feel that ep1 and 2 broke several rules of starwars but since the original author created these works we must take them as law...why... because this is his story to tell not ours to intrupret and tell him what his story should be.

The same goes for M1-3 you can't really say that they lacked continuity because they built off of M1 and since the ending of M1 left the door wide open in M2 they could do or say pretty much whatever they wanted.... Neo may have been the one but then again he may only belive that and that just gives him the powers of the one.... or ... smith is dead....

Then after M2 you were left with doubts because it didn't turn out the exact way you expected it too. So now your stuck with what the WB's wanted you to think but alot was still open for debate SiN vs MwM ect.

Then M3 came along and straigtend out the messes concerning Neo ... not paticuarly anyone or anything else. Thus you are left with the door wide open again for anything or even nothing to happen. It is ultimately for the WB's to decide.

As for LOTR: Return of the King.... This story has enough background and supporting information that you have to take it exactly for what it is #1 and #2 these threebooks were origingally written as one book.... also the were filmed as one film. I personally haven't ever picked up a book that really left you guessing what happened from chapter to chapter. Thats because most books are written in a way to keep you reading until the final page and thus these three books cannot trully be judged as 3 books but a one The Lord of the Rings.

I have similar unanswered questions to Deep, and so far I can't see any reply to my query, so first I thought they had to go to broadcast depth to get in and out of the Matrix. I can't think of a time when they could get into the Matrix from Zion. Secondly in the 1st movie how did Cypher manage to have a secret meeting with Smith. Should not the others have known it was happening, after all they needed to be plugged in to get there, was there some way for Cypher to plug himself in whilst everyone was asleep, in which case who operated for him. If Smith managed to do this by one of his magical tricks, how did he get to contact Cypher without anyone else knowing. Am I stupid or what? - No don't answer that one.

To jack into the matrix they need a hard line ( my assumption since this has never been shown but it has been hinted towards.) So they must go to where those hard lines are (Brodacst depth). They cannont get into the matrix from zion otherwise they wouldn't have hovercrafts. Now I do belive that they can view the matrix from anywhere... kinda like cell phones while they are in the matrix. They can upload and download information but they can't physically get in or out thru that connection...(probably too unstable)

Onto cypher, remember when Neo walked up on him right before we see the scene between cypher and smith. Cypher gets scared then turns off some of the monitors, and then he explains to neo about learning how to read the code. So I figure Cypher had developed some program to use his residual self image as an avatar in a program that is having the disscusion with smith. As far as tasting the steak well I just chalk that up to cypher doing a little acting bit. he knows that he can't really taste it but he would like to and that is his whole point in meeting with smith.

But there is nothing firm to back this up. we never see anyone else (minus neo but that was slightly different) in the matrix without being jacked in... That doesn't mean its imposible though.

it says in reloaded, that the machines are drilling straight down from the surface to zion, and that they would avoid the defense perimeter. This would mean that it is very likely that they were drilling without the access codes. The access codes could also be the way to get into zion, through the docking bay. All the other ships get into zion very easily without having to drill through the surface, why (in smith's view) should the machines have to? It would have made the machines job so much easier if they had the access codes... see what I mean.
another theory: the mainframe codes could contain self-destruct codes, lockdown codes... etc, that the captins of the ships could use in the event of and emergency. If the machines got a hold of those....
anyway, those are just my theories.

Deep wrote:

That Darth Vader was Luke's father was most likely "developed" at the time the sequel to Star Wars came out... There were so many possibilities after the first Star Wars...

ah, no. the Skywalker family tree was developed before Star Wars even became a script.

Qui-Gon Jinn? he was developed for the movies. but not the family ties.