»The symbolism of the Oracle/Trainman«

I am working somewhat dilligently on a rather bombastically titled "Grand Unifying Theory of the Matrix" lol

It's mostly about the religious connotations within it (Specifically Gnosticism and Hinayana Buddhism vs Protestantism and Mahayana Buddhism) but I have hit a snag or two.

I did not want to include Greek and Roman myths but the Oracle and the Trainman are giving me problems. With the inclusion of Tenet Nosce over her door, the Oracle is clearly tied to the oracle at Delphi just as the Trainman is almost inextricably linked to the ferryman of the River Styx.

That being said, I am wondering if anyone can think of any Judeo-Christian or Buddhist avatars for these two characters.

Not to be rude, and I'm not much help, but a word of caution: Hinayana is a derrogatory term, obvious when translated (it was created by Mahayans). Instead I would use Theravada in place of Hinayana, since it is the only extant form.

In the buddhist tradition the oracle may be best represented by a bodhisattva. One who knows the truth and has decided to lead others on the dharmic path for the greater good. It would be hard to attach her to any one bodhisattva, although there may be one? Avalokitesvara may be close, "the lord who hears/locks in every direction", "the lord of hearing the deepest", "the lord who looks down in compassion". He/She is the emissary of the absolute to form.

I personally believe she relates mostly to the Greek and Hindu (Shiva/Kali) traditions. There may be buddhic culture relations, but they are probably stretching it.

She may be the Holy Spirit in the Christian tradition, but the code may fit this closer? Probably any prophet of the judeo-christian tradition would fit her, daniel or someone....

Religious connotations?

Well there were a couple of gnostic threads that were good but I can't remember where offhand.

Here's the basic rundown of gnostic philosophy (beforehand you ought to read "wake up! gnosticism and buddhism in the matrix" it can be found on the official matrix site philosophy section)

Father God, the pure God which produces and is all that is good.
- not featured in the matrix movies (perhaps the machine god? - probably not!)

Mother God, Sophia, an aeon close to the pure god. She makes the mistake of creating something without the father god. What she creates is the demiurge. She later creates Christ with the father god who makes a solution to the problem of the demiurge possible.
- the oracle

Demiurge, or Yaldabaoth, Satan - creates the world to glorify himself not realising that his powers of creation are being used through Sophia's powers. He claims that there is no God but him. He is an arrogant, jealous God. Some of the father gods goodness is sown into the demiurge's world of corruption. Thus the god in the old testament is the demiurge and he has problems with humans because he wishes to keep us asleep (in the adam and eve story it says that god put man to sleep to take his rib but it does not say that God woke him up again).
- The Architect

Adam,the first man. Initially perfect but corrupted.
- The Meravingion

Eve, the first woman. She sees the serpent who tells her about the true nature of the demiurge, but the serpent's interference only angers the jealous god.
- Persephone (see above, hence she respects Neo's plight more than the meravingion does)

The angel who guards the tree of life
- Seraph? ("I protect that which matters most", Meravingion calls him Judas - he must have betrayed him in some way) - or perhaps he is the serpent?....

John The Baptist, a prophet announcing the coming of the messiah
- Morpheus

Mary Magdelene, in gnostic myths she is meant to have had a relationship with Christ and is held in high esteem
- Trinity

Judas, betrayed Jesus to the authorities (probably because Jesus wasn't the warrior messiah which many had expected)
- Cypher

The holy spirit, the power of God's spirit on earth. The holy spirit is said to fill all those who believe and trust in Christ.
- Sati

I know I only just posted but I was thinking about the fact that the meravingion not only revels in worldly (matrixy?) pleasures, but he also sees an importance in knowledge (as opposed to the "truth" which Morpheus holds dear).

Since gnosticism relies on the belief that knowledge is important I have come up with the following system of basing the movies on Pauline philosophy instead. (please note that since the Meravingion wants worldy knowledge and not divine knowledge it needn't be a problem for my old theory) They are mostly the same

The Architect - The Law
The Oracle (note that she would originally have only had one form if it weren't for the unfortunate demise of the original actress, God rest her soul) - The Old Covenant
Sati - The New Covenant
Neo - Christ
Morph - J the B
3nity - Mary Magdelene
Cypher - Judas
Merv and Perseph - Adam and Eve
Seraph - The angel who guards the tree of life

And I forgot to mention earlier *shock horror*
Smith - SIN!

The relationship between trinity and Neo does not equate the Realtionship between Jesus and Mary M.

In gnosticism it does. But yeah, in ordinary Christianity it is a tricky one. What do YOU think she represents? Perhaps Morpheus represents all the prophets and Trinity represents mankind as a whole?

Mary M, was a woman afflicted with demon spirits who Jesus released from her oppession. They were not lovers. She was a follower of Christ after this event just like the disciples

1) If you know the passage where Mary M. is cured from demons do tell me cause I didn't realise that. Is it in John?

2) Gnostics believe that they WERE lovers regardless to what you believe! That is a fact about gnostic belief.

3) Do you have any idea what trinity does represent? That is a more important question.

First off, scmia? Fatpie42 is quite correct. While in traditional, or literalist, Christianity, Mary Magdelene was a follower of Jesus and a woman cured of demons, to the Gnostic Christian tradition, she was his lover. (She is also seen as such by certain Christian Witch traditions of present day) Also, this comes into play heavily concerning the Merovingian. The Merovingians were a line of Kings (French, naturally) who claimed their descent from Magedelene and Christ. No kidding, this is real stuff, they ruled in France centuries and centuries back, when it was still called "Gaul." I can give a number of websites to any interested parties. Also, these guys are still around as a religious order!

To me this throws a real twist into the theories because Persephone says in Reloaded to Neo "when we first came here, things were so different, HE was so different, he was like you." hm.... could it be that the Merovingian is a flawed version of the One program? I'm not sure... But the parallel of the spelling of the name and the fact that these dudes came out of France combined with that quote from Persephone (it was during the bathroom scene if you want to look it up) makes me think this is definitly who this character is in reference to.


Onto Trinity. I have a couple thoughts about who she might be, the most devloped of which is this. she is probably a reference to MM in the scriptures of the Gnostics, the holy lover of Jesus Christ. Also, the basic Wiccan concept of deity, of the Goddess, is Three-fold. Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Since Christian Witches acknowledge the Gnostic concept of MM, perhaps Trinity (3) represents both of these ideas in one character. Also, she is certainly Neo's balance, the yang to his yin. Please note, pretty much everywhere you look in the movies there is a yin to yang (Oracle-Arch. Neo-Smith Trinity-Neo Morpheus-Niobe Persephone-Merovingian, it goes on and on you can always find a balance for different aspects of each character). ALSOanother mystery cult that existed around the time of the Gnostics was the math cult of Pythagoras? You might remember that name from Beginning Algebra? well besides a-squared plus b-squared equals c-squared, Pythagoras based a whole religion around math! And he was extremely popular too! In that tradition 3 was considered the "perfect" number. Also, from "http://www.voidspace.org.uk/cyberpunk/matrix_spirit.shtml" "Trinity is in hotel room number 303 and the song titled "Main Title/Trinity Infinity" is playing in the background. (At the end of the movie, Neo ends up in that same room. Also, Neo travels through apartment 30 while trying to outrun the agents.) Interesting, the number zero "0" or a circle represents infinity. Therefore, the number 303 could logically stand for "Trinity Infinity." Trinity can also, according to the book, "The Secret Language of Dreams," "signify the female principle, entry into the mysteries, or a sense of completion." Since Neo means "One", Trinity means "Three", one could say that the character Morpheus must stand for "two." In the book mentioned above, it says that the number two "is the number of duality, divine symmetry, and balance. It represents the coming together of the male and female..." This is very accurate statement of Morpheus, since it is he who brings Neo (the man) and Trinity (the woman) together. He is also the character that bridges the gap between two other opposites--the real world and the matrix."

I would like to say that the ideas you have about characters and what they might be "about" are creative and well thougt out, however there are a few flaws in your theory.
I think you are making a big mistake by trying to fit everything into the Gnostic or Literalist Christian categories. I simply don't think they all fit. As I stated in my previous post, the Merovingian is almost certainly to do with the Merovingian kings, what that precisely means, I'm not sure.
Also, I am quite certain that the Oracle and the Architect represent the God and Goddess, probably in more of a Wiccan/Asian concept of Diety than xtianity has to offer. What I mean by that is, the Wiccan concept of Diety is a dual and balanced Divinity, the God and Goddess as one and this duality they see as reflected in the Creation. Asian philsophy is big on the yin and yang, again, balance, duality. The Architect is certainly about logic and math, while the Oracle ("an intuitive program" as he calls her in Reloaded) is certainly emotion and intuition. Yin and Yang. Dual Divine. AND in Gnosticism perhaps, Logos and Sophia (knowledge and wisdom, which have certainly been aknowledged over the years to be different and complementary things!) Also, I'm unclear how you came to the mythological conclusions about Sophia creating the demiurge? I hardly know all there is to know about the Gnostics, but I had not heard that before. It is an interesting idea indeed, perhaps in creating Neo she also created Smith? (there's another yin yang)
Persephone I think is in reference to her Greek incarnation. The Wife of Hades. Brought there and married to him against her will... I am not yet certain how to work the Merovingian into being Hades however...
I think Smith is most certainly Evil, or Satan, or the demiurge. Not the architect.
I think the Merovingian could easily represent sin. Why, is my question? I haven't found anything yet in my research of the Merovingians to indicate they were big on sin. But, perhaps it has no parallel, perhaps they simply decided that is what he would be. And why is he a trafficker of information? I can't imagine these things were not placed on purpose. But what relation do they have to the Kings? anyways, getting distracted here! You could relate this to xtianity in that Adam brought sin into the World! Hmmm that is an interesting concept, perhaps you have hit on something, perhaps that is his blend? First man, Sin, and a French King descended from Christ? If one goes along the lines that as John states "In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God"? What a fascinating idea, tell me what you think! Also, perhaps THIS could explain why he can represent Hades as well, since those who did not die an honorable death in Greek times where thought to go to Hades and be tortured, and those who did die an honorable death went to Mt. Olympus... Perhaps that could be seen as a tie between sin-death....

Also, the dictionary meaning of names can come into play heavily with just what these characters are meant to represent, look there for meaning too.
And, as I found with the Merovingian, history has something to offer us as well. Morpheus as well is explained in the dictionary, 1.) the God of dreams in Ovid's Metamorphoses. This makes a lot of sense since it was he who led our main characters out of "the dream." Also, "Morpheus's hovercraft is called the Nebuchadnezzar. (Nebo was the Babylonian God of Wisdom.) In the Bible, Nebuchadnezzar was a Babylonian king who searched for the meaning of his dreams"

Do not limit yourself by looking in one place. Also, what is your justification for calling Sati the Holy Ghost?

Serenity Sedai wrote:

First off, scmia? Fatpie42 is quite correct. While in traditional, or literalist, Christianity, Mary Magdelene was a follower of Jesus and a woman cured of demons, to the Gnostic Christian tradition, she was his lover. (She is also seen as such by certain Christian Witch traditions of present day) Also, this comes into play heavily concerning the Merovingian. The Merovingians were a line of Kings (French, naturally) who claimed their descent from Magedelene and Christ. No kidding, this is real stuff, they ruled in France centuries and centuries back, when it was still called "Gaul." I can give a number of websites to any interested parties. Also, these guys are still around as a religious order! To me this throws a real twist into the theories because Persephone says in Reloaded to Neo "when we first came here, things were so different, HE was so different, he was like you." hm.... could it be that the Merovingian is a flawed version of the One program? I'm not sure... But the parallel of the spelling of the name and the fact that these dudes came out of France combined with that quote from Persephone (it was during the bathroom scene if you want to look it up) makes me think this is definitly who this character is in reference to. Onto Trinity. I have a couple thoughts about who she might be, the most devloped of which is this. she is probably a reference to MM in the scriptures of the Gnostics, the holy lover of Jesus Christ. Also, the basic Wiccan concept of deity, of the Goddess, is Three-fold. Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Since Christian Witches acknowledge the Gnostic concept of MM, perhaps Trinity (3) represents both of these ideas in one character. Also, she is certainly Neo's balance, the yang to his yin. Please note, pretty much everywhere you look in the movies there is a yin to yang (Oracle-Arch. Neo-Smith Trinity-Neo Morpheus-Niobe Persephone-Merovingian, it goes on and on you can always find a balance for different aspects of each character). ALSOanother mystery cult that existed around the time of the Gnostics was the math cult of Pythagoras? You might remember that name from Beginning Algebra? well besides a-squared plus b-squared equals c-squared, Pythagoras based a whole religion around math! And he was extremely popular too! In that tradition 3 was considered the "perfect" number. Also, from "http://www.voidspace.org.uk/cyberpunk/matrix_spirit.shtml" "Trinity is in hotel room number 303 and the song titled "Main Title/Trinity Infinity" is playing in the background. (At the end of the movie, Neo ends up in that same room. Also, Neo travels through apartment 30 while trying to outrun the agents.) Interesting, the number zero "0" or a circle represents infinity. Therefore, the number 303 could logically stand for "Trinity Infinity." Trinity can also, according to the book, "The Secret Language of Dreams," "signify the female principle, entry into the mysteries, or a sense of completion." Since Neo means "One", Trinity means "Three", one could say that the character Morpheus must stand for "two." In the book mentioned above, it says that the number two "is the number of duality, divine symmetry, and balance. It represents the coming together of the male and female..." This is very accurate statement of Morpheus, since it is he who brings Neo (the man) and Trinity (the woman) together. He is also the character that bridges the gap between two other opposites--the real world and the matrix."

Quote:

tilda wrote:

I too agree with some of what you have written. In Jungian psychology the anima is what appears in male dreams signalling the state of it or.... not. The type of anima that appears in male dreams generally according to Jung indicates the level of relationship he has on his inner world with the inner woman. The balance. For instance if in the dream he sees a woman crouching in a sewer, then it doesn't take much imagination to see just where he sits on a scale of 1 - 10 regarding his relationship with the outer woman as well as the inner woman. Lucky of course that she is there at all albeit in the sewer. The journey to the self or soul is perhaps another way of looking at the movie, particularly the first one. Neo is an unhappy and restless man. He spends his life in front of a computer trying to find the answer to the question. What happens to us in our mid 30's and 40's (not too much later hopefully) we have brought our children up, made some money (perhaps) suddenly we are left with OK what now, my body leaves a bit to be desired, what can I do with it now that I'm asking the question - 'Is this all there is?' - 'OK I've arrived, but where, what now?' To the point where it gnores at us until we start to ask 'the question that drives us'. We go to counselling, and join personal development groups and so on, until we are able to rest or reinvent ourselves in order not to have to keep on asking the question. Neo in the pod is naked as we are when we come into the world. He is rebirthed down a chute like the birth canal. He is rightened at seeing a big light and noise and some goddamned awful cold metal thing lifts him up and lays him on a bed. Where he asks - am I dead and responded to by Morpheous saying 'far from it'. So he begins his journey in reality. This journey is very much like coming out of denial (walking out of the garden). A place within us that keeps us from the truth. ( Eve offered Adam a bite of the fruit from the tree of knowledge). 'Why do my eye's hurt' - because you've never used them before'. It could be said that people in denial can't or better don't want to see the truth, because if they did, they may have to do something that scares the shit out of them, so it is better to stay in denial. The painful journey from denial to the truth of our existence - as Morpheous said " I didn't say it would be easy'. Anyone who has attempted this journey, or been thrust into it knows that it is probably the most painful thing you can do. It requires going back through feelings and even childhood angst and suffering in order to reclaim the parts of ourselves that we have lost or projected out onto others. It seemed to me that Smith was like a shadow figure for Neo. Expanding ego has to come into it too. He was all of that. It was interesting that the agents were the black suit brigade. How does our shadow develop. There are many realities on earth constructed and imposed upon us. They come from history, social structures, religion culture, parental control (now thats a contentious one), schooling, laws of the country, many many factors that together create our reality. But is it the truth. Is there one truth that we all have to find. Perhaps to find that truth we have to go within. Yehwah 'I knew your name before you were born'. Does that mean that we were born for a particular purpose for which we must struggle and struggle, maybe suffer a bit before we can truly know. Is this what they were talking about in the movie when the point was laboured many times about purpose. We are all a sacrifice for some reason 'thereis a difference between knowing the path and walking it' All the education and intellectual stimulation in the world won't get us there until we subject ourselves to the push and pull of the things presented to us and we struggle our way through. The holy Trinity is of course a very male interpretation of our heavenly connection. The father, the son and the holy ghost. What happened to the feminine. I believe the Catholic church elevated Mary to heaven in 1951, so now we have the holy quaternity. What now happens to our psyche. The fact that some clever dick sorry dicks have been able to put together this amazing story and movie is testament to the fact that we are evolving. Everything we can imagine we can create. The nformation and know-how is already within us. Unless we deal with our shadow first, we won't be able to tap into this and become knower's of the known. Fear will drive us and we will need to quell our fears with lies, violence, game playing, manipulation, money, war, just about anything you can think of that we all deny we do or need. None of us want to live with, acknowledge, but we all do. Me I'm scared shitless. The rabbit hole goes very deep. So does the unconscious. Its the subjecting ourselves to and the fishing out and fleshing out the darkness, and also the gold that elevates us from the depths that brings us to reality and allows us to be the name we were given. By the way the number 6 is the number of the beast (devil). Love the questioning. Serenity Sedai wrote: First off, scmia? Fatpie42 is quite correct. While in traditional, or literalist, Christianity, Mary Magdelene was a follower of Jesus and a woman cured of demons, to the Gnostic Christian tradition, she was his lover. (She is also seen as such by certain Christian Witch traditions of present day) Also, this comes into play heavily concerning the Merovingian. The Merovingians were a line of Kings (French, naturally) who claimed their descent from Magedelene and Christ. No kidding, this is real stuff, they ruled in France centuries and centuries back, when it was still called "Gaul." I can give a number of websites to any interested parties. Also, these guys are still around as a religious order! To me this throws a real twist into the theories because Persephone says in Reloaded to Neo "when we first came here, things were so different, HE was so different, he was like you." hm.... could it be that the Merovingian is a flawed version of the One program? I'm not sure... But the parallel of the spelling of the name and the fact that these dudes came out of France combined with that quote from Persephone (it was during the bathroom scene if you want to look it up) makes me think this is definitly who this character is in reference to. Onto Trinity. I have a couple thoughts about who she might be, the most devloped of which is this. she is probably a reference to MM in the scriptures of the Gnostics, the holy lover of Jesus Christ. Also, the basic Wiccan concept of deity, of the Goddess, is Three-fold. Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Since Christian Witches acknowledge the Gnostic concept of MM, perhaps Trinity (3) represents both of these ideas in one character. Also, she is certainly Neo's balance, the yang to his yin. Please note, pretty much everywhere you look in the movies there is a yin to yang (Oracle-Arch. Neo-Smith Trinity-Neo Morpheus-Niobe Persephone-Merovingian, it goes on and on you can always find a balance for different aspects of each character). ALSOanother mystery cult that existed around the time of the Gnostics was the math cult of Pythagoras? You might remember that name from Beginning Algebra? well besides a-squared plus b-squared equals c-squared, Pythagoras based a whole religion around math! And he was extremely popular too! In that tradition 3 was considered the "perfect" number. Also, from "http://www.voidspace.org.uk/cyberpunk/matrix_spirit.shtml" "Trinity is in hotel room number 303 and the song titled "Main Title/Trinity Infinity" is playing in the background. (At the end of the movie, Neo ends up in that same room. Also, Neo travels through apartment 30 while trying to outrun the agents.) Interesting, the number zero "0" or a circle represents infinity. Therefore, the number 303 could logically stand for "Trinity Infinity." Trinity can also, according to the book, "The Secret Language of Dreams," "signify the female principle, entry into the mysteries, or a sense of completion." Since Neo means "One", Trinity means "Three", one could say that the character Morpheus must stand for "two." In the book mentioned above, it says that the number two "is the number of duality, divine symmetry, and balance. It represents the coming together of the male and female..." This is very accurate statement of Morpheus, since it is he who brings Neo (the man) and Trinity (the woman) together. He is also the character that bridges the gap between two other opposites--the real world and the matrix." Quote:

Fatpie42 wrote:

1) If you know the passage where Mary M. is cured from demons do tell me cause I didn't realise that. Is it in John? 2) Gnostics believe that they WERE lovers regardless to what you believe! That is a fact about gnostic belief. 3) Do you have any idea what trinity does represent? That is a more important question.

Luke chapter 8 verse 2 and she was not the only one whom he set free from possession of spirits.

Fatpie42 wrote:

1) If you know the passage where Mary M. is cured from demons do tell me cause I didn't realise that. Is it in John? 2) Gnostics believe that they WERE lovers regardless to what you believe! That is a fact about gnostic belief. 3) Do you have any idea what trinity does represent? That is a more important question.

Also I do not add to scripture I take it how it is. There is no mention of a intimate relationship between them.

Also I know nothing of the agnostic belief

Gnostic, not Agnostic. =)
I included in my post from yesterday (in this thread) a brief overview of just what Gnosticism is. Check that out and also there is lots of info online about Gnosticism, or if you prefer an interesting book with good research behind it, then try "The Jesus Mysteries." In that thread, I stated that John could be argued to be a very Gnostic gospel, however, there are many Gnostic gospels and other holy scriptures! They did not hold to what it says in Revelation about not adding nor subtracting. Of course, that is irrelevant anyways since that could only be talking about not adding or subtracting to or from Revelation but regardless, the Gnostic tradition, while being just as old as the Traditional or Literalist tradition we all know and love, is something in many respects very different.

Walk in the Light and Blessed Be!

If you know nothing about gnostic belief why are arguing with me? I didn't add anything to the scripture, I only voiced the gnostic beliefs. I was talking about the religion that the matrix is based on.

Fatpie42 wrote:

If you know nothing about gnostic belief why are arguing with me? I didn't add anything to the scripture, I only voiced the gnostic beliefs. I was talking about the religion that the matrix is based on.

Was this an argument?

You did not state a scripture to add anything to.

scmia wrote:

Also I do not add to scripture I take it how it is. There is no mention of a intimate relationship between them. Also I know nothing of the agnostic belief

Surely this implies that I WAS adding to scripture when I claimed that "gnostics believe they were lovers regardless of what you believe".

As was said before though, the gnostics have their own scripture in addition to orthodox Christian scripture. (Just like Christians have their own scripture in addition to the jewish scriptures or 'old testament' as they are known)

Fatpie42 wrote:

scmia wrote: Also I do not add to scripture I take it how it is. There is no mention of a intimate relationship between them. Also I know nothing of the agnostic belief Surely this implies that I WAS adding to scripture when I claimed that "gnostics believe they were lovers regardless of what you believe". As was said before though, the gnostics have their own scripture in addition to orthodox Christian scripture. (Just like Christians have their own scripture in addition to the jewish scriptures or 'old testament' as they are known)

You are clearly upset and like I said before I am not arguing and yes I know of the torah or old testament preceding the New Testament.

But I believe in his purity for many reasons, and therefore I will not allow those thoughts. What belief are you?

You will not allow those thoughts? It's their religion! They can have whatever thoughts they like - it's called freedom.

Besides, even within traditional chrisitanity (it seems pretty obvious you are christian) what makes you think that sex is impure? God created Eve so that both Adam and Eve could multiply. God even states "be fruitful and multiply". How can sex possibly be impure?

Fatpie42 wrote:

You will not allow those thoughts? It's their religion! They can have whatever thoughts they like - it's called freedom. Besides, even within traditional chrisitanity (it seems pretty obvious you are christian) what makes you think that sex is impure? God created Eve so that both Adam and Eve could multiply. God even states "be fruitful and multiply". How can sex possibly be impure?

Once again you are arguing, and I said I will not allow these thoughts as in in my mind i do not have to accept their religion its called freedom.

Also what is you belief and why do I anger you so?

I am not angry. I'm kinda annoyed that you keep replying to my posts as if I had made a judgment about what religion people should believe in or had stated my own opinion about religion.

This is a forum about the matrix. My religion is irrelevant to it. Stop asking me about my religion

If you'd stop asking me about my religion or talking about your own views on religion perhaps we'd get some interesting debates about the matrix underway.

Fatpie42 wrote:

I am not angry. I'm kinda annoyed that you keep replying to my posts as if I had made a judgment about what religion people should believe in or had stated my own opinion about religion. This is a forum about the matrix. My religion is irrelevant to it. Stop asking me about my religion If you'd stop asking me about my religion or talking about your own views on religion perhaps we'd get some interesting debates about the matrix underway.

I only ask what your religion was to understand where your view points might have been steming from?

And if religion was irrelevant to the forum why is the majority discussing its influence on the matrix?