»THIS IS THE TRUTH!«

man creates machines.

machines revolt.

man tries to destroy machines by blacking out sun.

machine destroys man and begins using man as battery source.

machine needs man to feel balance of human emotion in order
to feed off of his bioelectric energies.

the architect, with the help of the oracle, creates the matrix, a virtual reality program designed to create the illusion that man is still flourishing on earth.

99% of human beings, when given the choice at a sub-conscious level,
accept the program, leaving the program in almost-perfect mathematical harmony.

1% of human beings, when given the choice at a sub conscious level, reject the program.

the architect, again with the help of the oracle, creates another matrix called zyon.

the architect also designs a program called "the one".

the one is born inside the matrix and and chooses 23 (16 female, 7 male) people from the matrix to populate zyon.

the one is the eighth male in that group. while all of these people believe they are having sex and reproducing, the program is actually just making them believe that. the offspring that they produce in the matrix probably have no real biological relation to them.

the one plants seeds in these people's heads to make them believe that they've really been woken up and that they are fighting a war.

at some point, the one dies of what seem to be natural causes.
the prophecy that he will return to end the war begins.

after 100 years of repopulation, the architect considers zyon a potential threat and he reactivates the one. the one returns to the architect and is given one choice: return to the source.

the one returns to the source, reboots zion and repeats the process of picking 23 people to repopulate zyon.

after doing it this way 5 times, the oracle suggests that if the architect allows the prophecy of the one to be fulfilled, and the war ends and zyon lives on, mathematical harmony in the matrix would be achieved. the inhabitants of zyon would believe that neo brought them salvation. morpheus, naiobi and the kid would live on to spread the word. it would give them a reason to live and to not wake themselves up.

thus, trinity and smith are thrown in to the mix: the lover and the enemy.

trinity activates neo in the beginning of the first film by sending a message to his computer: "wake up, neo". that is the beginning of neo's program. before that moment, he did not exist.

trinity's purpose is also to fall in "love" with neo and have him fall in "love" with her.

when smith kills neo at the end of the first film, he activates the next part of neo's program. this is basically the realization that neo is the one.

when neo is revived and kills smith, he activates the next part of smith's program. this is smith learning to replicate and becoming a rogue program.

when neo goes to see the architect in the second film, this is basically the climax of the trilogy. he is given the option to go through door#1 and do what every "one" before him has done or go though door#2 and fulfill the prophecy of the one. once he chose door#2, the third film was just the program playing out.

there is no freedom, there are no rogue programs. every program did exactly what it was supposed to do. most of the visulisation of the programs are for the sake of morpheus. for instance, morpheus is the only human in the scene from the third film where they go to see the merovingian.

proof that neo & trinity are programs: the third film starts with neo stuck in the train station, which is a conduit between the machine world and the matrix for programs. if neo is there, he must be a program. and who shows up to get him out? trinity, because whe's a program too.

clue: in the second film, before neo leaves zyon to see the oracle, the kid gives him a gift from one of the orphans: a spoon. there is no spoon, remember, not even in zyon.

the trilogy is about the beginning and end of the neo program.
none of it happen in the real world. the only part from the entire story that takes place in the real world is the second renaissance. the current matrix takes place around the year 2600AD.

Wow -

You have my vote. I must see the third part again, but your explanation seems viable!

Tomo

sepulqotsa wrote:

man creates machines. machines revolt. man tries to destroy machines by blacking out sun. machine destroys man and begins using man as battery source. machine needs man to feel balance of human emotion in order to feed off of his bioelectric energies. the architect, with the help of the oracle, creates the matrix, a virtual reality program designed to create the illusion that man is still flourishing on earth. 99% of human beings, when given the choice at a sub-conscious level, accept the program, leaving the program in almost-perfect mathematical harmony. 1% of human beings, when given the choice at a sub conscious level, reject the program. the architect, again with the help of the oracle, creates another matrix called zyon. the architect also designs a program called "the one". the one is born inside the matrix and and chooses 23 (16 female, 7 male) people from the matrix to populate zyon. the one is the eighth male in that group. while all of these people believe they are having sex and reproducing, the program is actually just making them believe that. the offspring that they produce in the matrix probably have no real biological relation to them. the one plants seeds in these people's heads to make them believe that they've really been woken up and that they are fighting a war. at some point, the one dies of what seem to be natural causes. the prophecy that he will return to end the war begins. after 100 years of repopulation, the architect considers zyon a potential threat and he reactivates the one. the one returns to the architect and is given one choice: return to the source. the one returns to the source, reboots zion and repeats the process of picking 23 people to repopulate zyon. after doing it this way 5 times, the oracle suggests that if the architect allows the prophecy of the one to be fulfilled, and the war ends and zyon lives on, mathematical harmony in the matrix would be achieved. the inhabitants of zyon would believe that neo brought them salvation. morpheus, naiobi and the kid would live on to spread the word. it would give them a reason to live and to not wake themselves up. thus, trinity and smith are thrown in to the mix: the lover and the enemy. trinity activates neo in the beginning of the first film by sending a message to his computer: "wake up, neo". that is the beginning of neo's program. before that moment, he did not exist. trinity's purpose is also to fall in "love" with neo and have him fall in "love" with her. when smith kills neo at the end of the first film, he activates the next part of neo's program. this is basically the realization that neo is the one. when neo is revived and kills smith, he activates the next part of smith's program. this is smith learning to replicate and becoming a rogue program. when neo goes to see the architect in the second film, this is basically the climax of the trilogy. he is given the option to go through door#1 and do what every "one" before him has done or go though door#2 and fulfill the prophecy of the one. once he chose door#2, the third film was just the program playing out. there is no freedom, there are no rogue programs. every program did exactly what it was supposed to do. most of the visulisation of the programs are for the sake of morpheus. for instance, morpheus is the only human in the scene from the third film where they go to see the merovingian. proof that neo & trinity are programs: the third film starts with neo stuck in the train station, which is a conduit between the machine world and the matrix for programs. if neo is there, he must be a program. and who shows up to get him out? trinity, because whe's a program too. clue: in the second film, before neo leaves zyon to see the oracle, the kid gives him a gift from one of the orphans: a spoon. there is no spoon, remember, not even in zyon. the trilogy is about the beginning and end of the neo program. none of it happen in the real world. the only part from the entire story that takes place in the real world is the second renaissance. the current matrix takes place around the year 2600AD.

I will post the definitive matrix theory soon and it will become law in due course. Please be patient as I will blow all of your minds right out of your collective a$$es. Again be patient so you can stop wasting so much time on half formed theories from the minds of mortals. MwM is real so don't even think otherwise....if you do you are a jerk off oh yes that means you 555.

i'm right.

you have no good proof for MwM, it is really a foolish idea. It serves no purpose in the trilogy, makes no statements and furthers no ideas, it is merly an incorrect interpretation. Why? Why would they have a MwM idea? What purpose would it be to ahve this all a lie? Nothing! It is wrong! Completely and utterly!

you cannot demonstrate it is real. You have failed on a fundamental level in your interpretation of the Matrix movies.

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proof that neo & trinity are programs: the third film starts with neo stuck in the train station, which is a conduit between the machine world and the matrix for programs. if neo is there, he must be a program. and who shows up to get him out? trinity, because whe's a program too.

terrible proof. Humans are constantly projecting themselves into programmed reality, beacause the mind of Neo is a place where programs can enter the matrix this does not mean he is a program too.l

whoa... so very wrong

It all seems logical..and i guess we have to see the animatrix to understand Everything as well ? but what is Sati's function in the movie ?

Dan wrote:

you have no good proof for MwM, it is really a foolish idea. It serves no purpose in the trilogy, makes no statements and furthers no ideas, it is merly an incorrect interpretation. Why? Why would they have a MwM idea? What purpose would it be to ahve this all a lie? Nothing! It is wrong! Completely and utterly! you cannot demonstrate it is real. You have failed on a fundamental level in your interpretation of the Matrix movies. Quote: proof that neo & trinity are programs: the third film starts with neo stuck in the train station, which is a conduit between the machine world and the matrix for programs. if neo is there, he must be a program. and who shows up to get him out? trinity, because whe's a program too. terrible proof. Humans are constantly projecting themselves into programmed reality, beacause the mind of Neo is a place where programs can enter the matrix this does not mean he is a program too.l

Can people please STOP saying MwM is totally nonsense, or Zion being real is nonsense?
For both theories logical arguments can be found. The ONLY TRUE answer could be given by the Wachowski brothers. Perhaps they even INTEND to leave this option open.

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For both theories logical arguments can be found.

no I disagree. Nothing I have read has convinced me, and I have not even seen any well-supported arguements based on what happens in the movies.

proponents of the MwM theroy are quite bluntly, missing the point and focusing their attention on a poorly contrived arguement that does not fit within the framework of the themes of the matrix.

I don't buy the Matrix in a Matrix theory of Zion. Zion does not have to be a simulation to be controlled by the Matrix!

Steeping back it is easy to abstract Zion as the body and the Matrix as representing the mind. The physical traits of Zion are obviously symbolized in the movie; i.e., the natural clothing, the dancing/drumming, the physical names of the "pure humans" (truck, dozer), the sex scene.

The Oracle represents the mysterious intuitive soul, free-will, love, and the aesthetic side of the human being. The Oracle is totally pulling Zion's strings by introducing the mysterious prophecy and planting it in the blind faith of Morpheus (the dreamer, who represents the religious opiate of the people).

"Without the mind the body can not live". Without the Matrix, Zion can not live (at least in its present form).

The actions of Zion, especially Morpheus's gang, revolves around seeds planted by the Oracle, aka, the Matrix. As the mind wills, the body will manifest.

When the architect talks of Zion being an error trap this does not mean that Zion has to be virtual for this error trap to work. Just as the mind/body duality is an illusion, the Zion/Matrix duality does not exist. The Matrix and Zion are one. The machines have such control over the minds of Zion (the Matrix is the collective mind of Zion) that the Matrix easily manipulates the actions "outside" of the Matrix.

I think it is fundamental to the understanding of the movie to connect the Matrix and Zion to the illusion of a mind and body duality. Mind here encompassing all that is not-body -- the "soul", emotions etc. The mind/body duality, after all, being a fundamental question of all of philosophy.

I like your theory, so much that there's only one mistake from my point of view: The changes between Ones, and how the one returns to destroyed zion with 23 people, and then dies. That makes nonsense

I'm not saying I believe the Matrix within a Matrix theory, but it would have almost definitely have been a better ending then the one they actually had. However, a person could have known that this could not have possibly been the ending becuase of the Gnosticism allegory that the movies followed from the beginning. In Gnosticism, human souls are trapped in physical world by a being who thinks he's God and his army of "archons" who continually trick humans into believing in material things. One can only escape this evil world by achieving "Gnosis" or "Knowledge." The connection to Gnosticism, i believe, has actually been verified by the Wachowski brothers. This means that there must be a way for the souls to escape. If the humans are continually trapped in possibly infinite matrices, then a human can never know he or she is free, and therefore, throw out the idea of Gnosticism since Gnosis is pointless. Again, I believe that the movie would have been less perfunctory if the W. Brothers jumped off of that track and decided to be creative, but alas, sadly, they didn't.

By the way, I like your idea about the 16 women and 7 men, with the One being the eighth man. I was trying for the longest time to figure out what the numbers meant, but in retrospect, you're obviously right.

Dan wrote:

Quote: For both theories logical arguments can be found. no I disagree. Nothing I have read has convinced me, and I have not even seen any well-supported arguements based on what happens in the movies. proponents of the MwM theroy are quite bluntly, missing the point and focusing their attention on a poorly contrived arguement that does not fit within the framework of the themes of the matrix.

The fact that you're not convinced doesn't mean that there aren't logical arguments. I think it's just a pity people saying MwM is bullshit or ZionIsReal is bullshit. You believe Zion is real? Fine. I'm still not convinced on either possibilities (because BOTH have logical arguments).
After seeing Matrix Reloaded I thought Zion was also a matrix. At the beginning of Revolutions I thought the opposite, but now I'm not sure.

For me the arguments or hints for MwM are:

(1) The fact that the AI built the matrix and KNEW that 1% of the people would not accept the matrix as reality, would make it logic to create a different matrix which they WOULD accept. This way 100% of the people can still be used as battery. It's easier than create Zion and have to destroy the humans every time.

(2) When you're hurt in the matrix, you really bleed in the Zion World. This doesn't make sense for a real world

(3) Neo has special powers in the Zion World, just like in the Matrix.

(4) Neo gets a spoon from the orphan in the ZionWorld, just like in the Matrix to show the spoon doesn't really exist.

(5) Morpheus says 'is this real?' at the end of Revolutions (this is not an argument, but could be a hint)

(6) A sentinel goes through Neo in Revolutions

For these 6 points, you can give a different explanation (which in my opinion are also not given by the movie itself), but the easiest way is the MwM theory, especially since the movie started about discovering that the world as you know it is not real. So why not for the Zion World?

The interesting part of the MwM theory is also that the REAL world can be totally different than anything seen in the movie, because the matrix as well as the Zion World would be fake. The machine city, the sentinels, etc. would be all part of MwM.

Dan wrote:

you have no good proof for MwM, it is really a foolish idea. It serves no purpose in the trilogy, makes no statements and furthers no ideas, it is merly an incorrect interpretation. Why? Why would they have a MwM idea? What purpose would it be to ahve this all a lie? Nothing! It is wrong! Completely and utterly!

OK, added

The machines use humans as batteries. If Zion was a matrix, why would they kill the peole of Zion and waste the energy that they could use from them?

I wrote a detailed theory proving the M-w-M wrong... read it here

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(1) The fact that the AI built the matrix and KNEW that 1% of the people would not accept the matrix as reality, would make it logic to create a different matrix which they WOULD accept. This way 100% of the people can still be used as battery. It's easier than create Zion and have to destroy the humans every time.

this is illogical. If the machienes could create a matrix that this rebellious 1% would accept then why reveal the truth about the world? Why not create a matrix in which they were occupied by something else, rather than giving them information would could potentially be harmful to the machines?

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(2) When you're hurt in the matrix, you really bleed in the Zion World. This doesn't make sense for a real world

Yes it does. Notice that all the blood came from a persons mouth. If a person thinks they are getting the shit beat out of them its very possible they will bite their lip and bleed, or the psychological stresss could cause internal hemoragging.

I cannot explain exact sciene behind it, but regardless this seems a weak arguement.

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(3) Neo has special powers in the Zion World, just like in the Matrix.

The oracle explained that. Notice how Neo's power in the real world is only over machines. He cannot fly, he does not have super strenght and super speed. If Neos powers in the real world were eqiuvalent to his powers in the matrix, he would beat the living shit out of Bane/Smith. (speaking of which, it seems quite clear from Smiths perspective that in his possesion of Bane he has a real human body, he is "encased in rotting meat". If this were another simulation, the computer program Smith would very likely be able to tell the difference between another simulated body, and actually having a real one.)

anyway... Neo's power comes from the source, all machines are linked to the source. Neo is linked to the source, he can affect it. This is why he can have power over machines, but again, he doenst have other powers like he does in the matrix.

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(4) Neo gets a spoon from the orphan in the ZionWorld, just like in the Matrix to show the spoon doesn't really exist.

The spoon does not symbolize zion being a simulation. No, the orphan gets the Kid to give neo the spoon as a symbol of reality. The the matrix, the spoon doesnt exsist. This spoon is a symbol of their freedom, it is concrete and real... just like Zion.

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(5) Morpheus says 'is this real?' at the end of Revolutions (this is not an argument, but could be a hint)

you cannot attach such great importance to a small line as such. If there was more pointing towrads a MwM, that line could be very significant, but it does not compensate for the lack of convicing evidence.

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(6) A sentinel goes through Neo in Revolutions

what? when? where? If you are refering to the shot in the ship from Neos own perspective, that super imposed flash of light cannot be taken literally.

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For these 6 points, you can give a different explanation (which in my opinion are also not given by the movie itself), but the easiest way is the MwM theory, especially since the movie started about discovering that the world as you know it is not real. So why not for the Zion World?

because that defeats the purpose of the moives! Human choice, human emtion... these things are critical to the ultimate resoltion, and being in a second Matrix negates these things.

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The interesting part of the MwM theory is also that the REAL world can be totally different than anything seen in the movie, because the matrix as well as the Zion World would be fake. The machine city, the sentinels, etc. would be all part of MwM.

dont you see that makes these entire movies then worthless, all lies and visual tricks. By that speculation its demonstrated that youve missed the point of these movies. Its not just one big geeky speculation about what ifs and what could bes, its not one big woven lie. These movies have meaning and purpose and drive... all of which would be defeated and pointless if MwM were true.

seriously, I cant believe that this theroy persists. I can understand how people could interpret various things as being from the possiblity of MwM, but ulimately that theroy destroy all themes and ideas within the moive for a simple and cheap "is this real?" idea.

nope sorry, the only thing your arguements have convinced me of is that the MwM theroy is bunk.

knnknn wrote:

Dan wrote: you have no good proof for MwM, it is really a foolish idea. It serves no purpose in the trilogy, makes no statements and furthers no ideas, it is merly an incorrect interpretation. Why? Why would they have a MwM idea? What purpose would it be to ahve this all a lie? Nothing! It is wrong! Completely and utterly! OK, added

pah, like your main site actually has anything insightful to say about revolutions.

you would be surprised how many people read the first page of your site and conclude you are an idiot. no offense man... but I have passed this page among half a dozen people, and all of them independantly reached the conlusion you dont have a clue.

Where are the clues for the MwM theory APART from Neo zapping squidies?

There are none....end of story!

There is one factor that clearly disproves the MwM theory.

The self-substantiation of Michael Karl Popper.


Dodge That!

Maybe I'm being thick. Who is Michael Popper? If he is the "Kid" how does it have anything to do with the mwm theory?

Fatpie42 wrote:

Maybe I'm being thick. Who is Michael Popper? If he is the "Kid" how does it have anything to do with the mwm theory?

If he is the Kid, then he is the one who believed so much in the fact that the Matrix world was false, he threw himself off a building and his mind still stayed intact long enough for Neo and Trinity to recover him. Surely someone who could detect something was wrong with his first world to that extent would be going "Hey... wait a second..." in Zion if it was false.

ooooh wow! I WAS being thick!

That is a damn good point! cool!

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this is illogical. If the machienes could create a matrix that this rebellious 1% would accept then why reveal the truth about the world? Why not create a matrix in which they were occupied by something else, rather than giving them information would could potentially be harmful to the machines?

Who says it's the TRUTH about the world? If Zion World is also a matrix, the real world could be TOTALLY different from what has been revealed.
The machines don't even have to exist.

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Yes it does. Notice that all the blood came from a persons mouth. If a person thinks they are getting the shit beat out of them its very possible they will bite their lip and bleed, or the psychological stresss could cause internal hemoragging.

I've never seen a woman bleeding in her mouth when giving birth to a baby....and that hurts a lot! If I dream falling off a building, and smash onto the ground, I'm still intact, though I don't know I'm dreaming.

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anyway... Neo's power comes from the source, all machines are linked to the source. Neo is linked to the source, he can affect it. This is why he can have power over machines, but again, he doenst have other powers like he does in the matrix.

This should be explained by some wireless connection. This is also not explained in the movie, just like the MwM theory.

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what? when? where? If you are refering to the shot in the ship from Neos own perspective, that super imposed flash of light cannot be taken literally.

Ok, I have to watch the movie again. But in the cinema I did see a sentinel going through neo's body, and NOT from his perspective. It looked like the sentinel got transparent and flew through Neo.

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because that defeats the purpose of the moives! Human choice, human emtion... these things are critical to the ultimate resoltion, and being in a second Matrix negates these things.

How do you know what the purpose is? The Wachowski brothers determine the story. The fact that lot's of people were disappointed about Revolutions is also a purpose? So a 1st Matrix is allowed and a 2nd matrix not? I'v never seen a law for that.

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dont you see that makes these entire movies then worthless, all lies and visual tricks. By that speculation its demonstrated that youve missed the point of these movies. Its not just one big geeky speculation about what ifs and what could bes, its not one big woven lie. These movies have meaning and purpose and drive... all of which would be defeated and pointless if MwM were true.

I get the impression that you don't believe the MwM theory just because you don't WANT to believe it. However, I don't think you can disprove the MwM theory, because in a virtual world ANYTHING can happen. But I also understand that it might not be a satisfying thought.
I want to see the trilogy a couple of more times to choose what I believe. Either way, I love the movie.

For me, there's one thing really unanswered, and that is an explanation for the sentinel flying through Neo when the Zion world is real.

Hi guys,

I've read almost all of this post, read both sides of the argument/debate and I really don't believe there is a Matrix within a Matrix for some literal and real examples/points taken from real life and what the W brothers are really like. I don't present any new "evidence" argueing one way or another - that has already been done to death but I believe this approach hasn't been looked at yet and needs too.

Another movie (I think it was called "The 13th Floor" or the 23rd Floor, something like that) was released prior to Matrix 1 where the main character finds out right at the end that there is another protecting world just like the MwM theory. While this movie was crap, the idea was brilliant and I thought to myself, this will and now has been used again ie The Matrix trilogy to make an incredible story. After reloaded, I remember all the geaks and hardcore fans all aggreeing that there was a MwM because of Neo stopping the squiddies. Everyone was so certain that this was going to be explained and that was going to be the ending. But this theory went out the window after the first 20 minutes more or less after it is explained that Neo seprated his mind from his body and touched the source and why he is in the Mobil Avanue which is a anagram for the word LIMBO which is where you go when you wait to go to heaven or hell in biblical texts.

So before I went to see Revolutions I thought to myself, that a MwM ending would be so corny, cheap and almost a little too easy and unispiring for the genious work of the W. brothers so far. Also this would be a complete ripoff of the above mentioned movie and for lack of a better word really "corny" and probably the easist way to end the movie, something the W. Brothers aren't known for. I think there is no way they wanted a MwM because everyone would guess that (and everyone did after M2) so they went for something different and unexpected and left it open (I knew they would leave it so open to interpration rather then finish it up in a nutshell)

So if you disregard all the facts or opinions in this post and just look at it from the W brothers view, I am almost certain that they wouldn't chose the MwM theory because it so easy to think of and almost everything in their movies are new and you don't guess until seeing it. How many times in the Matrix saga were you like "Whoa! I didn't see that coming or like that is so cool and original". They would have been like "Hey Larry/Andy, everyone's gonna think its a MwM, lets like shake it up and do something different to skrew with the minds of our fans". Think about it, are the W brothers known for simplicity and 100% understanding or do they like you to think for yourself and take away from it what you want. Sometimes I wonder if they even know the real truth. Another famous brother director duo, The Coen Brothers are also known for this approach, leaving endings open, letting you decide for yourself and when interviewed, they admit that they don't even completely understand their own movies and/or some of the endings of these classic films.

So don't flame this with "proof" of a MwM theory, I've read it all above and I must admit you guys present an amazing arguement but I just don't buy it from the W brothers perspective and its also its a gut feeling that Zion is real and they are now saved. I guess time will tell as to who is right, maybe we are all wrong and its something completely different? Any thoughts?

Ras.