»About pi«

Okay, I did a little research on Pi, and found that the 32 decimal place oh Pi is O. I believe that this could possibly have something to do with your theory on how many neos/zions...I don't really know how exactly, but I just found it interesting.

Also, origionally pi simply equalled 3

The pi reference goes to the Circle of Life. Life with man and machines is out of balance. The circle cannot be complete with the two sides fighting each other. The Counsellor implies that man relies on machines in ways that he cannot fathom. Neo is probably the first person that has evolved to that next level where he is both man and machine, and can co-exist and exert his will in both worlds.

This is the perfection of the seventh Matrix that the Architect cannot understand. The Architect, Oracle, Persephone, Agent Smith and the Merovingian may have been based on real people at one time. But, they've become totally machine forms and cannot evolve since they've lost their connection to their humanity.

In Buddhism, there is the journey to achieve Enlightenment. Resurrection is one way that the path can be revealed, because the Seraph said you cannot learn what is real without a fight/struggle. The Seraph's golden code is an indication of his divine nature and will help show the way.

Pi is transcendental, that is, pi is not the solution of any polynomial equation with integer coefficients. The transcendentality of pi implies that there is no ruler and compass construction to construct a square equal in area to a given circle.

Which kind of says it all. The machines don't like things involving pi, and Neo is, in a way, pi.

emp wrote:

Pi is transcendental, that is, pi is not the solution of any polynomial equation with integer coefficients. The transcendentality of pi implies that there is no ruler and compass construction to construct a square equal in area to a given circle. Which kind of says it all. The machines don't like things involving pi, and Neo is, in a way, pi.

1) Hey, cool ideas. But isn't it "irrational". Anyway it serves as the same argument.

2) What is the reason that your email is "@integrertmedia"?

Quote:

What is the reason that your email is "@integrertmedia"?

The reason is quite simple. It's not complete. It does not have a beginning, and therefore has no end. Just like a circle.

Neo is almost certainly an expression of pi. Even with such an amazing amount of computer prediction(the screens of Neo), the Architect isn't sure how Neo will react. Pi is an infinite expression. The screens have neo with screens behind him, with neo with screens behind him, ad infinitum. How many computers, if given intelligence, would be driven mad by this concept(like asplinter in their harddrive). Yes, Agent Smith is obsessed. And very unhappy with the incalculable nature of man, and most especially Neo(314, baby).

Jack Frost wrote:

Even with such an amazing amount of computer prediction(the screens of Neo), the Architect isn't sure how Neo will react.

Pi lies between 3 and 4. Thus if Pi represents Neo, then Neo can be calculated/predicted a lot.

The finer choices (=the post-comma digits = the infinite small choice possibilites) are not calculatable that easy, but as you know from the example with the butterfly causing a storm on another continent, these very choices may change everything.

gotta love that chaos theory its very interesting and cool...

Ok, I'm just wondering what Pi is devrived from, I have only a high-school level education (a junior in high school to be more precise) because I am in high school right now. I use Pi all the time in my math class but I never found out where precisly it comes from. I know e is part of the formulas used in a lot of natural phenomion (like a shell's spiral) but it was never mentioned what Pi came from.

isn't it the measure of the curvature of a perfect circle?

Yup, it´s the formula for the circunference of the perfect circle, formula that isn´t complete because it´s infinite, a perfect circle can´t have a beginning or an end, it must be continuos and perfect, I only know the first numbers of pi: 3.1416.

somewhere in our world there is a super computer that is counting out every digit of pi even as we speak...i don't know when it started or how far it has gotten...i will try to find this info...

irot wrote:

Yup, it´s the formula for the circunference of the perfect circle.

Nice half answer.
It's not a formula, it's the result of a formula.

What it actually represents is the ratio of a circle's circumference to it's diameter.

So if you had a circle with a diameter of 1, it would have a circumference of exactly Pi

The reason it has an infinite number of decimal places (in plain language) is the need for comparing like things in maths.

A Circle's Diameter is a linear expression, so the circumference of a circle is viewed (for this ratio at least) as a polygon with an infinite number of linear sides.

Which is pretty much what a circle is.

Symbolically it represents a very simple idea (width compared to edge) which on closer inspection is infact infinitely complex and therefore ultimately unsolveable.

Bit like the Matrix.

Interesting....

Okay, I'm done reading the other pi thread.... too much blather, not enough topic.

ANYway, I don't see pi in Bane's hand, either. In ETM, he DOES carve another line, perpendicular to the two parallel lines, which, I think, is what makes people think it's the Greek letter pi. HOWEVER, if you look at it closely, the perpendicular line intersects the two parallel lines, and not at the endpoints, as the letter PI does! If you ask me, it looks more like he's trying to carve a pound sign (#)....

To me (nothing to do w/Matrix now) Pi is the mathematical representation of "order from chaos," infinite and unpredictable, yet structured to the point where if taken as a whole (or closer and closer to it) it becomes predictable, even essential.

Phi is another Greek letter used in mathematics. It stands for the Golden Ratio, aka the Golden Section, (in German, "Goldene Schnitt"... Harry Potter, anyone?) aka the Divine Proportion, aka "extreme and mean ratio." Its decimal equivalent is very roughly 1.61803....

Phi is an integral part of a pentagram (five-pointed star) and is closely connected with the Fibonacci sequence (remember the nautilus). Euclid devised the first known definition of phi: "A straight line is said to have been cut in extreme and mean ratio when, as the whole line is to the greater segment, so is the greater segment to the lesser segment."

Without diagrams, it's hard to explain any more clearly. When you try to calculate this ratio, however, something remarkable happens. You get:
1+
1 over 1+
1 over 1+
1 over 1+.... (best representation I can muster without diagrams, sorry)

Phi, then, can be said to be the mathematical representation of pure infinity.
I don't see phi in The Matrix movies. It's often overlooked, so it's no surprise, but I'll bet the machines could never have created the matrix without it. Nor could they have done so without Pi. There are circles in the matrix; without pi, you can't make them. Therefore, I don't think Neo (the 1) could be Pi (3.14159...) or Phi (1.61803...). I don't think any character, human or program, could be representative of, or even carry exclusively, either of these numbers which seem to me to be integral to creation (order from chaos, and infinity).

Just my 1.61803... pence.

Edit - male bits=money? very funny, site admin. Verrrry funny....

I just had a thought. (it kinda hurt, but I'm okay now) The code Neo carries actually COULD be phi! consider:

I said before that phi is integral to the five-pointed star, and the five-sided polygon.

101 (Neo's room) is binary for five!

the pentagram (and all its incarnations and cousins) are associated with humanity in general, to the philosophers at least (who incorporated mathematics in their studies as an essential part of knowing the truth). Neo of course is the quintessential human, the savior of man, and all that.

Neo is the anomaly. I said before I don't see phi in the matrix. If Neo carries phi, to be reinserted into the prime program, then it would not exist in the matrix! The "harmony of precision" would be rather upset by pure infinity - an infinite loop! So, phi is displaced into the ONE (the one to carry the code?) Thus, Phi's reinsertion into the prime program would cancel out the anomaly, and the matrix could function as normal once again, at least until the next anomaly.

Maybe. I don't know. It made sense for a minute, anyway....

how does the devil get connected to the pentagram symbol?

The ONE-der Man wrote:

how does the devil get connected to the pentagram symbol?

google.com... Books for a start

marl64 wrote:

irot wrote: Yup, it´s the formula for the circunference of the perfect circle. Nice half answer. It's not a formula, it's the result of a formula. What it actually represents is the ratio of a circle's circumference to it's diameter. So if you had a circle with a diameter of 1, it would have a circumference of exactly Pi The reason it has an infinite number of decimal places (in plain language) is the need for comparing like things in maths. A Circle's Diameter is a linear expression, so the circumference of a circle is viewed (for this ratio at least) as a polygon with an infinite number of linear sides. Which is pretty much what a circle is. Symbolically it represents a very simple idea (width compared to edge) which on closer inspection is infact infinitely complex and therefore ultimately unsolveable. Bit like the Matrix.

I just talked to my math teacher today about this and that's exactually what she said. It's also good to note that Pi is exactually 1/2 the circumference of a unit circle which is probably why it represents an arc of 180 degrees, since a circle has 360 degrees.

The ONE-der Man wrote:

how does the devil get connected to the pentagram symbol?

It's actually not the pentagram which is connected to the devil, it's the upside down pentagram, a Wiccian friend of mine pointed that out to me.

The Pi and Phi are numbers with infinite number of decimal places but they can be counted precisly enough although not to the exact value by the means of infinite progression. How close you can get to the exact "perfect" value depends on the number of iteration you are going to proceed. If you are calculating the Pi or Phi like this, each additional iteration is more precis than the previous one.

Applying this to the matrix, it is like each occurence of the One and reload of the matrix is the additional iteration - another step in infinite ladder to the perfection, so to speak. However, as in mathematics, the perfection can never be fully reached, at least in the world of rational numbers. You should make another big "transcendental" step to the real numbers. It may mean that the real world must enter the matrix (matrix = the world of rational numbers) in order to be more precis.

In this view, matrix and real world are converging. The simulation is getting closer to the simulated and once they intermingle you can't distinguish between one and the other because both became just different parts of the real.

Pi and Phi are irational and infinite but they are real. With matrix, it is similar: what used to be a rational simulation (in order to produce energy or whatever) has become part of the real world. And Neo, the One, is the first point, where the both worlds met.

Ehm ... I came a bit astray from the numbers but isn't it interesting at least?

Interesting outlook, and it seems to work out. But the conclusion seems a bit off, pi, being an irrational number can never be taken to perfection, at least not in base ten, like e. You can always go a little farther, like y=1/X can never intersect with y=0, continously closer but never reaching it, until infinity. What makes the 1/X of the matrix unable to ever reach the 0 that is the real world? The simple fact that it is an artificial enviroment, a construct thus can't be perfect. In that sense it's exactually like Pi, never quite real.

Reminds me of being at school.

The teacher told us about recursion by demonstrating that Ten divided by three was 3.33 recurring. Explaining that this meant that there were an infinate number of threes after the decimal place.

I remember wondering why they didn't simply use fractions, it'd be a lot cheaper on the threes.

[quote="annaerullo"]I just had a thought. (it kinda hurt, but I'm okay now) The code Neo carries actually COULD be phi! consider:

I said before that phi is integral to the five-pointed star, and the five-sided polygon.[quote]

It is connected to a pentagon, a 5-sided polygon with all sides of equal length. And it is only connected to the pentagon in as much as if you extend the lines of a pentagon you get a star. The length of the segment from the corner of the pentagon to the corner of the star is 1.618... (phi)times the length a side of the pentagon. That's why the Pythagoreans loved the pentagon so much.

Phi is found in many other things. The fibonacci sequence (1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 ... each next number is the sum of the current and previous one) is very much intertwined in phi, for its ratio converges to phi. For example 5/3 = 1.666..., 21/13 = 1.6154, and as you continue the progression it gets closer and closer to 1.618... like 1597/987 (two further off adjacent fib. numbers) is already pretty close to phi.

while phi = 1.618..., 1/phi = .618..., or 1/phi = phi - 1. Phi is usually defined in this way: it is the solution to the equation x^2 - x - 1 = 0 (the equation the Architect tries to balance? I doubt it. Phi is just a cool number. It is not the representation of infinity, or somehow deeply connected with the matrix, it's just one of many examples that Nature knows Her math.)

The exact numerical form of phi is (1+5^(1/2))/2. Put that as your x in the above equation and see if it works (of course, radical 5 is irrational, and that's why phi is, too)

I can say a lot more, but I'll end with a last kick. You can draw a representation of phi pretty easily. First draw a square, then in the middle of the square draw a line connecting two sides (bisecting the other two)
____
| | |
|_|_|

like this, I guess...kinda inaccurate though. With that center line, rotate it 90 degrees clockwise (till it is parallel to the base of the square) so that it continues the bottom line of your square. Where it ends, draw a vertical line matching the height of your square, and connect the top of the square with this line, like this,
_______
| | | |
|_|_|__|

that second vertical line was the center line your drew, the last vertical line is the new one. Guess what? The sides of that figure are in the 'golden ratio'. The ratio that supposedly creates the most appealing rectangle, that almost every artist, da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Dali, etc uses. The ratio is, of course, 1:1.618.... If you draw a square with length of the top horizontal line, above and connected to our golden rectangle, you get another golden rectangle, you can do this forever. connecting corners you get a nautilus spiral....etc etc etc. Do research if you're interested. Or watch the movie Pi. I could go on, let me know if you want me to.

oh. wow. don't even look at those figures. they're totally messed up. i guess you'll just have to use your imagination

Adumbro Deus wrote:

Interesting outlook, and it seems to work out. But the conclusion seems a bit off, pi, being an irrational number can never be taken to perfection, at least not in base ten, like e. You can always go a little farther, like y=1/X can never intersect with y=0, continously closer but never reaching it, until infinity. What makes the 1/X of the matrix unable to ever reach the 0 that is the real world? The simple fact that it is an artificial enviroment, a construct thus can't be perfect. In that sense it's exactually like Pi, never quite real.

The point is that in equations, to be precis, you are not using the decimal value 3,1415927... but the greek letter Pi. That can be regarded as transcebdebtal step - to use symbol instead of number.

And I still think, matrix may become part of the real, just consider the death in matrix usually means death in reality. And if programs like Smith may copy themselves into the Brane of Bane ... roads and houses ar also not natural but constructed - they are covering the original natural world, we are living in them and still considering it an integral part of reality. Matrix is just much more sophisticated cover, poured over the eyes ...

marl64 wrote:

Reminds me of being at school. The teacher told us about recursion by demonstrating that Ten divided by three was 3.33 recurring. Explaining that this meant that there were an infinate number of threes after the decimal place. I remember wondering why they didn't simply use fractions, it'd be a lot cheaper on the threes.

Well a repeating number like 3.333... is rational and can be demonstrated through noting it is repeating, whereas an irrational number such as Pi is immpossible to accuratly write down except as Pi itself since Pi is a number as much as 5 or 1.3.

Irrational numbers always seem to capture the human mind since they simply cannot be fully comprehended. Yet another immpossible puzzle for the the human mind.