»The importance of Seraph«

I agree with digital, in his previous sayings.

Seraph is not a previous One.

He, at one time, coexisted with Neo, which the machines would not allow because that would mean that the matrix was not reloaded at a point (if Seraph was supposed to return to the source.)

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Seraph is not a previous One. He, at one time, coexisted with Neo, which the machines would not allow because that would mean that the matrix was not reloaded at a point (if Seraph was supposed to return to the source.)

I think that the "person" is only a carrier of the code that has to be inserted to the source, after that, the body, the package of the code is useless and prefers to be adopted by Merv or Oracle, they give a purpose to that exhiliated (don't know how to spell) "people"

Just a tought

Let's look at this logically. (I know this has been said somewhere previously -- maybe -- but I'm too lazy to go find it. If this is your idea, then we're both filled with genius.) Hypothetically speaking, Seraph is a former One. Why? What on earth would be the purpose in that? So Seraph gets fun One powers some decades (centuries?) previous, goes back to the Source, then, after being assimilated and dissipated, reforms in the Matrix, and goes to work for Merv for a while, then gets fed up and leaves, becoming the Oracle's bodyguard, which, as some people have been saying, is what he was supposed to do in the first place? That doesn't jive. Also, where is his body? The human body does not live for several hundred years, regardless of what's going on in the brain. People still age in comas, you know. If you go into a coma for seventy years, you will come out of it...well, you'll be dead, most like. If you survive and wake up, though, those seventy years still have taken their tolls. So Seraph still being plugged into the Matrix somewhere is not a valid theory.

Now, I know what you "Seraph = One" theorists are thinking: "This is so far in the future. The machines could easly have stasis." This is true. However, I don't know how much brain activity goes on in a person in stasis (probably less than those in a coma, and that is little enough) and besides: why? Why on earth would the machines preserve him if he has enough power to destroy the Matrix? No logic to it.

The only avenue left for Seraph being a former One is after he went to the Source, the code/soul/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it was ripped from his body, leaving an empty shell. However, for that to work, he wouldn't have been able to restart Zion with the 6 men and 13 women (or whatever the numbers were; I like those odds, though!).

Besides, even if you were able to get some sort of theory that makes logical sense, incorporating all these things, then you're still left with his motives: "I just completed my purpose as a One. Now I'm going to work for Merv." Several...years? Days? Some sort of time cycle later: "Merv sucks. Oh, wait. What's the Oracle up to? I'm going to go work for her..."

Seraph being a former One could explain the gold code (maybe) as well as his ability to stand against Neo, but it leaves too many holes. Here's a theory that makes sense:

Seraph is an Exile. Simple. What his purpose was is never said, but he made his own purpose in the Matrix: protect the Oracle. But when he was first Exiled, he went to work for Merv. Why? Once again, dunno. Not enough to even make a somewhat-clear assumption. After a while, he got fed up for one reason or another, and left. Mid-life crisis? Anyway, as for him fighting -- and beating -- Smith, if the Agents are always going after the Redpills, the chances of them crossing paths near the Oracle are pretty high. Enter Seraph, the Oracle's self-appointed protector to keep the fight away from her. Smith takes offense, begins fighting the Exile. Exile kicks ass. Why? They're both programs. Perhaps Seraph, as an Exile, picked up more power than he had when he was fulfilling his purpose. Smith did. Sati, who has no purpose, apparently can control the sun! (There're multiple discussions on both of those topics, so I'm not getting into them.) And what's the deal with the Train-dude (I can't remember his name). He threw Neo around like a rag doll. You could say he took him by surprise, but he was still very rag-doll-like.

Once again, I must apologize for stating this theory as fact, but I am confident that my logic is sound. However, if you can find any holes in my statements, I urge you to tell me, then proceed to give me your name, address, phone number, and business hours. You'll recieve a package at your front door when you're away...[/i]

No, I disagree, I think that going to the Source = death.

Oracle: When a program faces deletion, it can either choose to hide here, or return to the Source.

I think, that even this early on, Neo is being told that he is inevitably going to die in this fight.

ryanlewisjones wrote:

No, I disagree, I think that going to the Source = death. Oracle: When a program faces deletion, it can either choose to hide here, or return to the Source. I think, that even this early on, Neo is being told that he is inevitably going to die in this fight.

Good points, it makes a lot of sense.

The source is really the acceptance of one's fate, and realization of self. You go to the source to fulfil your destiny, and life.

Again, Seraph isn't a One.

Yay really sad this but I was saying to loads of my mates about this and they said possibly but wasnt to sure and Im so glad that there are some ppl with the same view as me every point that was made in the very first post on this was what I was saying down to the smile from Seraph @ the end.
But someone else also pointed out that we will probably never know which is possibly true and a shame but it always leaves room for such matrix discussion which I love but I still wanna know if this theory is 100% correct I hope it is as it works with everything in the matrix coming back as something else and yes Seraph use to work for Merv

I have doubts about Seraph being a previous One... his code is golden while the highest programs are shinning with white light (see Sati or the Oracle).

Neo is shinning like a sun after his "death". However, Neo is the only One to have reached the machine city so I don't know if the previous Ones were all shiny too.

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Neo is shinning like a sun after his "death". However, Neo is the only One to have reached the machine city so I don't know if the previous Ones were all shiny too.

How do we know if neo was the only one to reach the machine city. The archivest says near the end of Reloaded something like "zion will be destroyed and i warn you, we have become exceedingly good at it" does this mean that the machines have destroyed zion before? Is the real world a virsion of the matrix as well?

I also think that seraph may inherit the powers of the previous "one" because there is no way that he could keep up with neo when they fight otherwise

if seraph was a previous one he could have fought the "upgraded" smith as he took him and sati over. since he obviously couldn't ("i have beaten you before" - "well as you can see things have changed") he can't be a previous one. he is an agent of the first matrix (paradise) and thus is an angel (exile, oracle confirms it "everytime you hear someone talk about an angel, ghost or vampire"). the only previous one we encounter in the movie is Merv but that is another topic.

Merv a previous? Oh come on man!

He was a savior yes, but not of mankind.

He was, then he chose the right door but didn't want to be deleted, hence he went into the Matrix as an Exile. Just listen to what he and Persephone says, even the Trainman gives clues about that.

Be so kind to elaborate on these 'clues' then.

He was a savior for programs that wanted 'out' of their purpose and/or machine world. His organisation is for programs what Zion is for humans.

Yes, but he came to the Matrix at one point too. And he is powerful, you never really see him in other actions but talking but you know just by his lifestyle he has a certain power, if not even more power than Neo. I'm sure Neo vs. Merv would have made a great fight. The Trainmain working for Merv shows how powerful he really is. If the trainman can build a whole trainstation leading in and out of the Matrix he must be very powerful too but still he works for Merv. When Persephone says "He was like you" to Neo i really think she means it literally, not only in terms of love to Trinity. "I survived your predecessors and i will survive you" means he has faced all other Ones before Neo and knows how to beat them (indicating that he indeed was a previous One cause no other Program inculding Smith knows how to beat Neo). well, as always these are my assumptions but please don't just mock them right away mobil but try to keep the argument alive rather than just saying "Neh". Oh, and i almost forgot. Since Rhama Kandra (or however you spell that) said that all programs who want in and out of the Matrix need to go and see Merv he must have helped Smith as well which i clearly think he has not. So there must be another way in and out of the Matrix and into the Machine mainframe too. And the fact that Merv can change things in the Matrix too (like the piece of cake he "wrote" for the lady) i think this could be another clue that he in fact was a previous one who just didn't wanna pass on his powerful code (yes, i believe that "The One" is just a code that is attached to an anomaly, that is why Merv is no longer a human but a mixture of "the one" code attached to another program. that's why Neo says "programs hacking programs"). Just my interpretation of it all.

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Yes, but he came to the Matrix at one point too.

Yeah that actually argues against you since Neo never "came to the Matrix". Like the original man of prophecy, he was "born inside" it. "When we first came here" refers to Merv and Persephone's leaving the machine world.

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When Persephone says "He was like you" to Neo i really think she means it literally, not only in terms of love to Trinity.

Even if we remove the reference to love for Trinity from the context in which it belongs, this statement argues against you, too. If Merv was like Neo literally, how could he match him in a fight now? (If you think that's what makes someone a ONE.)

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"I survived your predecessors and i will survive you" means he has faced all other Ones before Neo and knows how to beat them (indicating that he indeed was a previous One cause no other Program inculding Smith knows how to beat Neo).

If he was a One, he faced himself?
Suriving someone (outliving them) does not = beating them.
If he "knows how to beat them", why send others to do so and then run away when they couldn't do it?

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Merv can change things in the Matrix too (like the piece of cake he "wrote" for the lady)

Baking a cake / writing a program = changing the Matrix? I guess next, you're going to say KeyMaker was a One, since keys do more than cakes, lol!

If you know about MxO, you will know more about the Merovingian.

And of course the biggest counter-argument: The Wachowskis' forgetting to reveal to us that we met a predecessor of Neo named "Merv".

First try to make your layout more attractive madmax_665!

Your style gives me a headache!

Ok, and then YOU take a look at the reply above you.

that is how a reply should be. He picks up my points and contradicts them and doesn't just simply put down my whole comment like you do Mobil.

I'm sorry Mobil but to me you come across like a complete knowitall jerk.

signing off

Thx. But how did you both like the counter?

madmax_665 wrote:

Ok, and then YOU take a look at the reply above you. that is how a reply should be. He picks up my points and contradicts them and doesn't just simply put down my whole comment like you do Mobil. I'm sorry Mobil but to me you come across like a complete knowitall jerk.

I have made many many replies on this forum and in the exact way you just advised me. If you would do some research by clicking on a feature on this site which will give you links to ALL of my posts, you could have seen that.

There was nothing serious to reply to , because...

a) it has already been dealt with extensively on the forum
b) you give few arguments which I do not take seriously

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signing off

Now that's an argument I agree with