»a good theory? find holes...«

We know that Neo is the eventuality of an anomaly in the mathematical equation that is the matrix. The matrix is a programmed dream world designed to turn humans into batteries. The architect was unable to create this world because humans have inherant imperfections and he naturally was not able to create anything imperfect. Therefore an intuitive program made a program that worked, but had problems. Those problems were:
1. everyone has to be given a choice, even if only at an unconcious level.
2. some people would chose to reject it.
3. Neo would eventually be born and be able to change the matrix.

Because of these flaws, in order to insure that the matrix would continue to function, the architect must find a way to control these inevitable problems. Therefore he allows for those who reject the matrix to go to Zion. The Oracle makes contact with these people in the beginning and helps them avoid agents in the matrix. This builds a trust between her and the humans. The architect uses this trust to guide the One to the source, where he gives him a rigged choice between saving humanity, or destroying humanity. I think the architect depends on the fact that Neo will most likely choose to save humanity. If Neo chooses to go to the source, the machines gain knowledge of the experiences which Neo had in his life that influenced his decisions plus all the understanding Neo had gained throughout his lifetime. This helps them further understand the human mind and will help them in creating a better and better matrix each time he is inserted.
This is why the Oracle always tells Neo that he has already made the choice, but now he has to understand it. The One always chooses the same thing, but until the machines understand fully why Neo chooses what he chooses, they will never have a full understanding of the human mind. Therefore they keep encouraging him to understand why he is making his choices.
I think that Trinity is a new addition to this matrix. He says that in all of the other matrices, Neo chose the door to the source because of his general love for all humanity. However, this time, the architect was using Neo's specific love for Trinity to try to persuade him to go to the source. Unfortunately for him, it backfired. Neo was more powerful than he initially anticipated and was able to bring trinity back to life.
While at the source, Neo was enlightened with a full understanding of the purpose of the machines. This enlightenment gave Neo the ability to predict the machine activity. This is why he was able to "feel" the machines.
Now comes the tricky part. When Neo connected with Agent Smith at the end of Matrix 1, we know that a part of Neo overwrote onto Smith. What we haven't found out is that a part of Smith over-wrote onto Neo. Therefore Smith has gained some human attributes while Neo some machine.
Near the end of Reloaded, it appears that Neo destroys the sentinals. However I think it is more likely that the ship (the Hammar?) which was coming to their rescue fired an EMP which disabled the sentinals.
Smith and Neo are both in a coma at the end of Reloaded. Why? Because they were both effected by an EMP (Smith was hit when he set off the EMP's to early, disabling Zions fleet). A machine (or part-machine) conciousness could possibly be disabled by an EMP blast just as the sentinals are.

Agent Smith is obiously another unanticipated problem in this matrix which will aid in the matrix's destruction. He has become an uncontrollable virus after gaining some attributes of Neo after joining with him. It will probably be he who causes the system failure foreshadowed in the first movie.

So there you have it... all I've got so far...
plz tell me where I go wrong so I can fix it.

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This is why the Oracle always tells Neo that he has already made the choice, but now he has to understand it. The One always chooses the same thing, but until the machines understand fully why Neo chooses what he chooses, they will never have a full understanding of the human mind. Therefore they keep encouraging him to understand why he is making his choices. I think that Trinity is a new addition to this matrix. He says that in all of the other matrices, Neo chose the door to the source because of his general love for all humanity. However, this time, the architect was using Neo's specific love for Trinity to try to persuade him to go to the source.

This is the only new thing.

Anything else is written on this page or already posted.

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However I think it is more likely that the ship (the Hammar?) which was coming to their rescue fired an EMP which disabled the sentinals.

Unlikely. Please read:

Yes, I have read those theories. I, however, only see two possibilities. Zion is a matrix, or Zion is real.

There are several reasons why I think that Zion could not possibly be another matrix and if you wish to discuss those, I'd be glad to.

If Zion is real, then you have two possibilities left. Neo gained some new powers by talking to the architect, or he didn't. My theory is based on the idea that Zion is real and that Neo hasn't gained any real world powers. If this is truly the case, then I don't see how any other theories work.

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, I have read those theories. I, however, only see two possibilities. Zion is a matrix, or Zion is real.

Go on. That's what this forum is about.

reasons why Zion cannot be another matrix:

1) It would cause a ridiculous plotline of a continous cycle of enlightenment. There would be no end to how many matrices there could be within matrices.

2) If Zion were another matrix, there would be no need for sentinal activity. Why would the sentinals need to destroy Zion if all the people connected to Zion were a part of the matrix? Couldn't the machines just pull the plug on them?

3) The whole story-line given to us so far would be nullified if Zion was a matrix. The Wachowski's wouldn't settle for such a predictable, crappy ending.


If Zion is truly NOT a matrix, then it must be the real world. Thus, unless Neo has gained some kind of super-human powers, he should not have been able to stop the sentinals.

stinkz wrote:

reasons why Zion cannot be another matrix:

Cannot be? You seem to be really convinced!

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It would cause a ridiculous plotline of a continous cycle of enlightenment. There would be no end to how many matrices there could be within matrices.

Continous cycle? No end? What the....?

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If Zion were another matrix, there would be no need for sentinal activity. Why would the sentinals need to destroy Zion if all the people connected to Zion were a part of the matrix? Couldn't the machines just pull the plug on them?

All reasons are written at:

Your post nullifies my site

There are hints at Zion being a Matrix:

The Oracle gives him another red pill. How about the name of the movie? The W brothers wouldn't make the name that lame would they? That would be lamer than the matrix in a matrix theory

You have to remember that the W brothers are comic book writers and the matrix in a matrix is total comic book. Plus the matrix can only be two deep.

The machines only know two versions of reality that the humans would accept - the 20th century world when they came into being and the world before they made humans into batteries which is like the Zion world. Any additional matrices would mean that the machines have imagination and machines do not.

Now some questions:
1. How does the Oracle know that Neo isn't sleeping in Zion if she's only connected to the 20th century Matrix?

2. Why do the sentinels have to drill down to Zion each time they destroy it? Why don't they just fly down the first time drillings and crush Zion in a quick swoop if they can?
3. How does Bane bring an object through from the 20th century Matrix to Zion? The part that bothers me is that no one notices that this shouldn't be possible.
4. Why does Agent Smith say that he is like Neo, “apparently free...But, as you well know appearances can be deceiving which brings me back to the reason we're here. We're not here because we're free. We're here, because we're not free.”?
5. Explain why the W brothers put in the scene with Hamaan and Neo discussing the machines and control on the engineering level.
6. Why do the machines need Neo to understand humans when they have the Oracle? The Architect explained that that was the reason they created the Oracle.
Plus Neo is in a coma in the end because of the exertion of killing the sentinels. Additionally his mind is assimilating a lot of information from the Architect and what has just happened.

knnknn,
yes, cannot be. I happen to believe that the Wachowskis made it seem like Neo was inside another matrix to stir up controversy. It is the first idea you are supposed to get as Neo raises his hand and appears to stop them. But however, unless the entire first two movies are building up a plot only to have it shattered the idea of another matrix just doesn't make sense. Plus there are many other angles they could take. (one of my favorites being the "SYSTEM THEORY" if youd like more on that I could post it, its great)
Stop sending me to that page, I don't see how it answers my question. If you know where I err, please tell me.

dabears,
The wnole storyline would be nullified if Zion was a matrix because:
a) Everything about humanities history that we have learned is now false
b) Morpheus is wrong about everything
c) The whole idea of escaping the matrix or battling Agents has no meaning
d) Basically, EVERYTHING that has been accomplished in MATRIX 1 and 2 is meaningless. We just have to start over and get the "real" story.
e) Plus, if they do this, whats to stop them from being free from Zion, there could just be another level of the MATRIX and it could never end. I hardly think it is restricted to two levels.

The symbolism you speak of is questionable. Another Red Pill? Umm... I think if they would have wanted to make that connection that the Oracle would have offered him two pieces. Plus, they are both still in the actual Matrix when this happens.
The spoon idea is interesting. However, I think the kid was giving him the spoon as some sort of reminder, or maybe to tell Neo that he finally got free. I really do not see how the kid would be sending him a message to wake up unless the kid somehow realizes that Zion is a matrix before Neo does.
The name of the movie could be "reloaded" for several reasons. First off, Reloaded brings Neo to the Architect, where Neo is supposed to go to the source where the matrix can be reloaded with the proper changes. Also, the idea that they have to go back into the matrix after Neo defeats the Agents and comes back to life is a reloaded idea.


In response to your questions
1) The Oracle knows that Neo is dreaming in Zion because she has been through 5 previous iterations of the Matrix. This is how she is able to convince the humans she is an Oracle.
2) The earth is very big. The humans are probably not being confined to one particular spot inside the earth. Remember, the Zionist have to believe they are free. Plus, the Zionists would put themself somewhere not easily accessable by machines.
3) What object did he bring?
4) He says that he is not free because he also is still being controlled by the machines. Neo is free in Zion, except he does not realize about the other level of control which the machines are utilizing to guide him to the source.
5) I don't know "why" that scene was put in. It was probably just to question what "control" really is.
6) The oracle is a machine. She was designed by machines. She was an intuitive program designed to create a Matrix construct that the humans would accept. The problem is, her solution was only temporary. It only works 99% of the time. Plus, there is a fundamental flaw which allows for a man to be born inside with the ability to change anything as he saw fit. Therefore they must control the 1% and the eventual Neo. I think that Neo's choice at the end is kind of symbolic of all humanities choice. Therefore, understanding the choice Neo makes could show them something about all humanity. The point is, the machines lack of understanding of the human mind is what caused the problems, but Neo IS the problem. Thus, when they have a full understanding of the problem, they can fix it.

You seem to be "sure" that Neo is in a coma from over-exhertion. How does that make sense with anything? You seem to like the idea of a matrix within a matrix, so if Zion is just a matrix, then over-exhertion would have nothing to do with it.

I do not agree that everything would be nullified in Matrix 1 & 2 regardless of whether Zion turns out to be part of the matrix or if Zion is the real world. This is about a journey regardless.

Let me address a through e:
a. Why does everything about human history have to be nullified or false? Everything is true. The humans in Zion are locked into the world as it was when 100% of the humans were turned into batteries. We only don't know what has happened over the past 600 years while the humans have been locked in the matrix. We have no idea how things are out in the real world with the machines in control and having no interference from the humans.
b. Morpheus is right about almost everything. He may not have the complete real picture, but essentially he is right. He believes that "When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix and the war, bring freedom to our people." Nothing here determines whether Zion is in the real world or whether Zion is in the matrix.
c. Escaping the matrix is essential to everything. It's just not as simple as you made it. It's just a little harder this way. It's not impossible or even improbable. Battling agents is essential also. It's battling the matrix contols.
d. Everything that was accomplished in Matrix 1 and 2 is not meaningless. It's a journey. You need 1 and 2 to understand 3. You need to go through 1 and 2 to get to 3 and to get out of the matrix. Just because we don't know what the real world looks like doesn't make 1 and 2 irrelevent.
e. It has to be restricted to two levels. Machines don't have imagination, therefore they cannot come up with another level. Besides the two levels is working. The second level puts humans in an all out war for survival. How much more do you need to distract you from realizing you are still in the matrix? And why does it have to be limited to one level? I don't see an answer other than it can't be that complicated or it's Hollywood. But lets face it, we aren't here talking about opposing views without it being complicated.

Why would he need two red pills, when he has already taken one? Thanks for the point about the spoon boy. I think that he may realize that Zion is the matrix. He showed Neo the ropes in Matrix 1, why not show him the ropes in Matrix 2.

Rebutting your answers:
1. The Oracle would also know if both were the matrix. Your point is conceivable, but less likely, because one of the previous ones would have had to have told her that he/she wasn't sleeping. The One doesn't give up information voluntarily to the Oracle. He is wary of her. He has always been nervous and wary around her.
2. Zion is always in the same place. The architect says, "The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program, after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male to rebuild Zion."
3. I'm not sure what the object was. They never did anything with it. It may have been some sort of electronic component. It was bigger than a hand.
4. If there is a level of control to guide him to the source, wouldn't it be easier to guide him to the source if both the 20th century world and Zion were the matrix.
5. It is about control. Everything is wonderful in the machine world as long as they are in control of the humans much as everything is wonderful in the human world as long as humans are in control of the machines. But is this really true?
6. Yes, the oracle is a program designed to understand humans and created the illusion of choice programming for the 20th century matrix. No, it wasn't a perfect fix thereby the creation of the Zion matrix. Then everyone stays plugged into the power plant. But when too many people get into the Zion matrix, it increases the probability that someone will figure out that Zion is a part of the matrix. Therefore, the matrix has to be recycled. The architect says, "While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalading probability of disaster.". There has to be choice in the end to complete the matrix just as there had to be choice back when Neo choose the red pill over the blue pill. They are trying to control the choice so the One doesn't go back to the Zion world and realize that it is part of the matrix as Neo did.

If you die in the matrix, you die in the "real world". The body cannot exist without the mind. If you are injured in the matrix, you bleed in the "real world". The body reacts to what the mind feels is real. Neo feels as if he has really exerted himself whether he really has or not. Yes, I am sure of the Matrix in a Matrix. I'm trying to see still see if all the pieces still fit. I'm open to other views if it makes sense to me, but I am a hard customer to convince.

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The Oracle gives him another red pill.

Because she loves candy.

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How about the name of the movie? The W brothers wouldn't make the name that lame would they?

I'd prefer the term "Realoaded" indicated a reboot, rather than MwM.

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That would be lamer than the matrix in a matrix theory

.
Do you mean MwM is lame?

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You have to remember that the W brothers are comic book writers and the matrix in a matrix is total comic book.

So?

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Plus the matrix can only be two deep.

Because if it were 23 levels deep it would make the Wachowskis Illuminati?

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The machines only know two versions of reality that the humans would accept - the 20th century world when they came into being and the world before they made humans into batteries which is like the Zion world. Any additional matrices would mean that the machines have imagination and machines do not.

Artificial intelligence will never become reality

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Now some questions: 1. How does the Oracle know that Neo isn't sleeping in Zion if she's only connected to the 20th century Matrix?

as mentioned at

Anonymous wrote:

knnknn, yes, cannot be. I happen to believe that the Wachowskis made it seem like Neo was inside another matrix to stir up controversy.

Yep, believe it or not, I think that this is one of the strongest arguments AGAINST Zion-is-within-a-Matrix, because "everybody thinks that".

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unless the entire first two movies are building up a plot only to have it shattered the idea of another matrix just doesn't make sense.

Hey, I have added this to my anti-MWM cites at

This site lives on theories and most omportantly on counter-theories! So never hesitate to make a post, saying that the site admin (= me) got it totally wrong!

Sorry, but this is an argument for what?

dabears,
a) only if Zion is a matrix do we have no idea about the real world.
b) It is obvious that Morpheus and everyone believes that Zion is a part of the real world. They would all be wrong in that they have not discovered the truth.
c) I don't think you are getting what I am saying. What is the point of escaping the matrix, if your mind is still inside another?
d) Finding out that what we know from 1 and 2 about the Real World and the Matrix is false, and that everyone, including the audience has been decieved would would create a need for a full length movie just explaining what is "really" going on.
e) It would make more sense, that if there are matrices within matrices that multiple would work better than 2. Think about it, there are 25,000,000 people in the real world, 1% of them escape to Zion, about 250,000. 1% of them should escape to the next level, containing about 2,500. The next containing 25, and the last ONE. That would be about 5 levels.

Who said that the candy she gave Neo has anything to do with a red pill?

Rebutting your rebuttals:
1. Are you saying that the Oracle has mind reading capabilities when a person is connected to the matrix? If this is so, then the machines would never have a problem containing the humans.
2. Rebuild Zion. Tell me, is Zion defined by a place, or is defined by the people it is composed of? Even if Zion is in the same place, the machines would probably cover their tracks.
3. How are you sure he brought it then?
4. Yes, it would be easier. It would be much easier. But the fact is, it is difficult. It makes sense why the Zionites can be a problem for the matrix, because they are not hardwired to the system. If they were hard-wired to the system, the machines would only have to pull the plug and the problem would be over. However, they cannot do this. If everyone in Zion is hard-wired to another matrix, what prevents the machines from pulling the plug on Neo right now, while he's still hard-wired?
5. It seems as if thats true. But the creator humans have the right to be in control don't they?
6. Why would the architect explain everything to Neo so much that he would be able to control the Zion matrix therein defeating the purpose of its creation?

Neo shouldn't feel that he has exerted himself. If he has freed his mind from this matrix he should be able to realize that exertion is all in the mind.

Here's a fundamental flaw I see. why would the type of people who would refuse to be controlled by the MATRIX system accept another system?

You bring up some good points though, I am no longer as fully convinced against the MWAM theory as I once was. My main problem is, why would the machines need to send sentinals to Zion to destroy it if they could just pull the plug? Unless they are doing this to keep up the illusion of danger to get Neo to choose the source. But then again, if they know that Neo is the One, why not just pull the plug on him? Maybe he is necessary? Maybe it is a faith in him which keeps the Zionites from rejecting the Zion matrix like they did the first. Maybe if the One dies, they will not believe and reject the system. I dunno, I'll get back to you on that once I've thought it through.

Anyways, if Zion is NOT a matrix, doesn't my theory work?

Anonymous wrote:

My main problem is, why would the machines need to send sentinals to Zion to destroy it if they could just pull the plug?

I don't know why you are asking these questions over again instead of referring to the (counter-)arguments already given matrix-explained.com... (although you claim you have read it)

For example:
'If Zion is part of the Matrix, why don't they simply unplug every one in Zion instead of fighting them for 100 years?'
&
'What do they need the prophecy for?'

or:
'If Zion is just a Matrix, why don't they escape out of it as they did before?'

Right now there are
more than 20 hints at Zion being part of the Matrix
more than 20 counter-ideas
7 events in the sentinel-zapping scene that have to be answered satisfactorily to make any theory likely.
3 theories what Zion is
8 possible conclusions about the Matrix

If you want to discuss any of the above, then please feel free to do it.
BUT: Please add to matrix_within_a_matrix.htm rather than rasing the same questions/conclusions again.

And please log in!! It could be gazillions of guests posting as 'guest'! I don't know whether it's you or not.

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And please log in!! It could be gazillions of guests posting as 'guest'! I don't know whether it's you or not.

I think he is afraid of cookies.

i think the object in guestion that Bane/Smith is carrying in Zion is a knife, made in Zion, in which to assassinate Neo, but he is stopped because of the kid who comes running to Neo. there is no Matrix object. Bane/Smith also nominates his crew along with Niobe to go back into the matrix to assist Morpheus, but his captain stops him and another crew joins Niobe. Bane/Smith may have wanted to go inside the Matrix to sabotage the mission or kill Neo or whatever.

i wonder whether or not all the Smiths have a hive mind or separate individual minds and think separately but act together, i think they are separate, otherwise they would be more organised.

in the trailer for Revolutions we know that Bane/Smith causes some sort of trouble in Zion, other than the emp incident

also, how did the Smiths enter the backdoor hall without keys?


(first post, yippee)

A ship stays behind after the meeting in the 20th century world until Morpheus can return to keep a presence in case the Oracle contacts them. She does contact them. They return to Zion. An object is given to Neo in Zion that comes from the Oracle. After that they rush back to get to the 20th century world so Neo can talk to the Oracle.

(Neo & Trinity's Quarters)
Trinity: Ballard.
Ballard: Is he here?... Neo, it's from the Oracle.
Neo: It's time to go.

The object looks like some kind of electronic component as best I can tell. It's bigger than a hand. Nothing is ever done with it and it is never seen again.

If you don't remember or don't believe me then go to your local dollar theater and see the movie again. I just saw it a week ago again.

I don't log in, because it's easier.

it is probably a disk, a downloaded message from the oracle. Things can be downloaded and uploaded into the matrix construct via disk.

Now, I just figured out a reason why my theory doesn't work. After Neo goes inside Agent Smith he comes back to the real world and an EMP goes off. Therefore, if he did become part machine it must be after that. Maybe when Smith tries to write himself onto Neo?

You are correct about the object. I didn't see it as something that contained data.

the object in question is a some sort of disc type thingy. It's metallic and is somewhat oddly shaped. I believe it's the same kind of thing that the asian chick had to drop in the mailbox in "The Final Flight of the Osiris." Bane (well, Bane's partner, actually, was the one who brought it out of the Matrix - it was the scene when Smith replicates himself onto Bane) didn't really bring it out, it's just that the information of it was downloaded from the MAtrix onto a disc in the real world. It wasn't physically brought over - I think the Zionites would have to be pretty stupid not to realize that something was wrong if they could bring objects from the Matrix over into the real world.

*Note from the admin*
The thought "I think the Zionites would have to be pretty stupid" is continued at

On another forum this theory was discussed ad nauseam and it was finally concluded that this theory cannot quite fit. If Neo became part machine upon enterring Agent Smith then he should have fallen into a coma from the EMP blast which occured once he escaped back into the real world. When I realized this I thought that maybe Neo became part machine when Smith tried to write his code onto him in the second movie. However, this doesn't work either because Smith did the same thing to Morpheus and Morpheus was not effected by the EMP.
With those two facts, the premise that an EMP could throw a human mind into a coma can be disregarded.

stinkz wrote:

should have fallen into a coma from the EMP blast

Probably sub-routines of Neo have always been there but have been activated when Neo went to the Architect.

The EMP disrupted them and Neo fell into a coma.

ok, but nothing happened at the source. He just talked a bit, was given a choice, and went back to the matrix. At what point did anything happen?

Neo went to the source. THAT happened.
if (Neo in room) and (Archie in room) THEN subroutine EnableZionGodMode

However this is a blatant speculation of mine.

I was under the impression that Neo never got to the source. The Architect said one door led to the source and the other went back tot he Matrix. Neo took the Mstrix door, never actually reaching the source itself, just the Architect's bachelor pad.

OK OK, he went to the presource, or as the Oracle puts it:
"He touched the Source"

but maybe she meant the sentinel incident. Whatever.