»Perhaps someone missed the message ... Explainations«

Revolutions explained much if not all ... at least for me.

Just look behind the entertaining action and f/x:

There is a great allegoric story, trying to retell the same on various layers. The story is:

Life is a mystery but love is the ultimate power. Even if you identify it as 'just a word'. In order to make it happen you must make a decision, and you must dare to believe.

The one layer was the dialogs which explained this main line. Another was the events within the matrix and the third were the events in Zion/Machine City.

Most characters represents a specific mind set rather than being a living person in order to ilustrate the character of the choice. Secrets about the Persons? Irrelevant.

Matrix within a Matrix or not? Irrelevant.
Real persons or programs? Irrelevant.
Is Neo the one? Irrelevant. In particular you - the reader - are the one to become a loving person who makes up his mind.
The messages which really matters is to make the choice and pay the price. It will pay off eventually ... even when it seems to be doomed. Don't get fooled by those evil forces which try to withdraw the power of choice and the power of love from you,

Is it true, that no one here likes to get messages, just get entertained?

Isn't entertainment the purpose of movies?

Still Lost

Lost wrote:

Isn't entertainment the purpose of movies?

Of course it is ! but culture and real value starts when there is also a message to be conveyed. I identified that the movie intended this strongly, but I realized that this purpose seems to lie beyond the interest of the audience.

"Love conquers all" is hardly a new or interesting message. I would rather have seen the ideas in Smith's little speech about love being a temporary construct expanded upon.

Just-a-Program wrote:

culture and real value starts when there is also a message to be conveyed. I identified that the movie intended this strongly, but I realized that this purpose seems to lie beyond the interest of the audience.

meaning that the audience isnt interested in reading the message or that the movie fails to convey it?

Loster Now

the main purpose of movies may be entertainment but please, you'r not gonna tell me that matrix is just a hollywood cliche, are you?

I loved that matrix made me think about its secrets and and follow its clues..

I dunno, may be they make an extended trilogy dvd, and we find all our answers...

PS: borthers totally have lost their focus!

this interp is dead on.
I totally got that message all throughout it.

By the by:

On the "love conquers all" idea being cliche.
It may be cliche, but it is a message that perhaps needs to be drilled into our heads.

Also, it was a beautiful way to send that message.
(even if so many people apparently missed it O_o)

Lysander wrote:

"Love conquers all" is hardly a new or interesting message. I would rather have seen the ideas in Smith's little speech about love being a temporary construct expanded upon.

That is my suspect: The audience like to get something new instead of expanding on the main power of life as it has been told before. People rather listen to the evil than digging in real human truth.

I guess you dislike being touched. As long as there is a thrilling or smart story, you remain in the positon to judge the movie apart of you. But as soon the message implies a personal involvement from yourself you bale out. Freedom and love is for free, but it has its price.

In modern cultures these essential facts may get lost. Not the power of weapons or a miracolous spirit will be victorious eventually but the good loving one who stands by his choice and friends. I really apreciated this outcome.

Lysander wrote

Quote:

:"Love conquers all" is hardly a new or interesting message. I would rather have seen the ideas in Smith's little speech about love being a temporary construct expanded upon.

Is that the only message you got out of the films? There are many levels of thought in these stories, I'm in the very difficult process of understanding the big picture - as soon as I can make some sense of the BIG PICTURE, I shall post a version of my theory.
Love does figure but it's not quite what we all seem to suspect...I think we are looking at the evolution of AI on a major scale, and Neo, Smith et-al are an important instrument in that evolution.... I shall have to think about this some more....

Another Smith wrote:

Lysander wrote Quote: :"Love conquers all" is hardly a new or interesting message. I would rather have seen the ideas in Smith's little speech about love being a temporary construct expanded upon. Is that the only message you got out of the films? There are many levels of thought in these stories, I'm in the very difficult process of understanding the big picture - as soon as I can make some sense of the BIG PICTURE, I shall post a version of my theory. Love does figure but it's not quite what we all seem to suspect...I think we are looking at the evolution of AI on a major scale, and Neo, Smith et-al are an important instrument in that evolution.... I shall have to think about this some more....

Of course it is not the only message, but the main line. All the raised questions of AI, persons or programs, became irrelevant in the end.
Sometimes persons have been called programs, just like Seraph, The Oracle, Sati and her father, Merowingian and some more, but they had a very human identity. The movie doesn't expand on evolution and their role, it doesn't ask for the nature of the proponents but it asks what they stand for. Only that matters. It is a matter of your personal evolution to grab the message.

It is not a flaw to leave questions unanswered. They are answerd - all: These points are not important

Just-a-Program wrote:

The messages which really matters is to make the choice and pay the price. It will pay off eventually ... even when it seems to be doomed. Don't get fooled by those evil forces which try to withdraw the power of choice and the power of love from you,

The message which really matters is that after Matrix_1 you could not hear a single person not being thrilled about that movie. Some loved the story, some loved the effects, the movie, the original idea, the concept, the multi-level phylosophical meanings and the new view to our world. Everybody LOVED it. As i can see now that is not the case with Revolutions and that means something. And dont even think of saying that those critisising the movie DID NOT GET IT.That is hardly the point here. Take Lord of the Rings for example. Anyone who has see the two episodes would agree that you have a constant improvement over the trilogy and that is expected in the final movie, giving the trilogy a consistent purpose and a meaning, besides making it big on $$$$$$.

Just-a-Program wrote:

That is my suspect: The audience like to get something new instead of expanding on the main power of life as it has been told before. People rather listen to the evil than digging in real human truth. I guess you dislike being touched. As long as there is a thrilling or smart story, you remain in the positon to judge the movie apart of you. But as soon the message implies a personal involvement from yourself you bale out. Freedom and love is for free, but it has its price. In modern cultures these essential facts may get lost. Not the power of weapons or a miracolous spirit will be victorious eventually but the good loving one who stands by his choice and friends. I really apreciated this outcome.

Sappy nonsense. What's "the evil" you are referring to? What's the point of digging in what may appear to be "real human truth" if it's already been thoroughly dug out?

What I don't like is seeing the same old shit over and over.

But I'm just responding to your interpretation of the movie's message, not saying that I believe it.

Lysander wrote:

Quote:

All the raised questions of AI, persons or programs, became irrelevant in the end.

Just explain to me how you reached this conclusion....I feel that AI was extremely important in the end...

Just-a-Program wrote:

Quote:

It is not a flaw to leave questions unanswered. They are answerd - all: These points are not important

All these points are extremely important to me because I WANT to understand...

There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

I didn't say that.

Lysander wrote:

I didn't say that.

Sorry forgot to put who wrote it OOOOooopppssss

Another Smith wrote:

Lysander wrote: Quote: All the raised questions of AI, persons or programs, became irrelevant in the end. Just explain to me how you reached this conclusion....I feel that AI was extremely important in the end...

It was me who said it: As the moral value of the persons were not distinguished by their origin, the terms programs, person and humans have been used synonymosly. The only difference seems to be that for programs are no known mirrors in Zion. But both do have will and make their decisions.

On a technical layer: If an AI would ever be able to act as a real sentient being, not only for mimikry, it shouldn't be a problem to take them like humans. Personally I don't believe it will ever happen, neither in my lifetime nor in a thousand years. But I am not the Oracle ...

Quote:

Just-a-Program wrote: Quote: It is not a flaw to leave questions unanswered. They are answerd - all: These points are not important All these points are extremely important to me because I WANT to understand... There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Listen, their are so many aspects around, so many unresolved questions, in the Matrix and also in our world. It is a good idea to remain courious, but in the jungle of questions you may loose the only important path. Focus is a virtue higher than curiosity.

The movie brought us some entertainment and eye candy but it focused on the important stuff and dropped all unnecessary. For instance What happend to Persiphone and Merowingian? They had been used to show a certain mind set in contrast to Neaos crew AND Smith: Desire and power, and only that. As they had played their cards, they are no longer of use. full stop.

Just a Program wrote::

Quote:

On a technical layer: If an AI would ever be able to act as a real sentient being, not only for mimikry, it shouldn't be a problem to take them like humans. Personally I don't believe it will ever happen, neither in my lifetime nor in a thousand years. But I am not the Oracle ...

Or the Architect for that matter... I feel that what we witnessed was the evolution of AI. And how do you know that a self-aware AI will not come into existence? We are still baffled by our sudden self-awareness, how did it happen for us?
Quantum computers are going to be able to answer that question for us very soon... Just think about that sentence for one moment.
Just a Program wrote:

Quote:

focus is a virtue higher than curiosity

I know, I've been extremely focussed for many years my friend, I've been on that path for God knows how long, I've been hindered and distracted and come face to face with many obstacles....but I'm still here, still searching and I'll carry on with the most important journey of my life looking for the answers.... Yes, folks this is the real me talking here... not my Another smith persona...

Life is a mystery but love is the ultimate power. Even if you identify it as 'just a word'. In order to make it happen you must make a decision, and you must dare to believe.

That is damn accuratelly. My opinion is that the whole story is about love (of any kind... ask Neo and Trinity at the rave party). And faith too. It is a nice message though.

But let me tell you something... EVOLUTION is the name of the game. We all look at it all the way back to the first Matrix. A way to coexist (which by the way humans haven`t been able to do so for millions of years... and also years to come... perhaps computers can ).

A question... how come is that only SMITH shows so much of a distaste for humans, i see no other "program" in the matrix doing that. I believe that Smit is a new power rising, just as Neo (the One), completelly out of control of the Matrix (differing with Neo which clearly was guided by the Matrix). The point here is computers do not hate humans, maybe it is the other way around.

That is the reason why I participate on boards - to recieve answers like this:

Another Smith wrote:

I feel that what we witnessed was the evolution of AI. And how do you know that a self-aware AI will not come into existence? We are still baffled by our sudden self-awareness, how did it happen for us? ... Yes, folks this is the real me talking here... not my Another smith persona...

First for the AI discussion: If AI will ever become more than a tricky computer program solving certain problems, but a person, I wouldn't call it evolution but hard work of the human architects.

Actually we don't have an idea what self-awareness is in scientific terms. We can detect neuron activity. But is that realy different to circut activity in a TV reciever? What if our brains are only little more than receivers of our souls, located beyond the material world? If that would be true, how could an AI be bestowed with a soul?

Zaa Nayazu wrote:

But let me tell you something... EVOLUTION is the name of the game. We all look at it all the way back to the first Matrix. A way to coexist (which by the way humans haven`t been able to do so for millions of years... and also years to come... perhaps computers can ).

That means you are associating the work of designers and achitects of hardware and software as evolution? I thought it was a contrast.

The Matrix Trilogy told all that: Everything was architected!

... but the persons started to act in their own power, making own decisions apart of the clockwork. As the result shown: Also this was intended.

Humans didn't coexist for millions of years. Homo sapiens is expected to exist less then 2 Million years. During that time has been much killings which hardly qualifies for co-existing. Fortunately some have survived ...

Actually computers don't live and dont have will or interest. They are acting as programmed. AI is extending the predicted behaviour but remains - fortunately - within the predetermined boundries. Nobody has the slightest idea what may happen if we drop this boundry. Most movies like the Terminator series and Matrix shows a clear vision. We don't have reason to be confident that this is no danger.

I am talking about coexistance with the planet and all the living things in it. And I believe i am not making myself clear. I am actually associating evolution with programing, but not saying it is the same. But since computers overcame humans, they have to find a way to live together, and that fits exactly with the law of survival, the strongest.

Maybe also computers are getting some "will" and "interests"

Please feedback

Zaa Nayazu wrote:

I am actually associating evolution with programing, but not saying it is the same. But since computers overcame humans, they have to find a way to live together, and that fits exactly with the law of survival, the strongest. Maybe also computers are getting some "will" and "interests"

I guess I catched what you mean, Zaa Nayazu, and I respect your opinion, but I still disagree. For me the term evolution gets more and more meaningless. Just to see if I got you right:

Evolution starts out as an apparently mindless force. It resulted in intermediate intelligences, just like humans. Their destiny was to drive evolution further by programming. And create subjects like AI which may survive due to better fit.

Is that what you think? Assuming so I say: The mindless forces looks too much like a super genius architect to give the term evolution a rest of its original meaning. All what we can say doesn't fit too well into the picture, even when the majority is actually saying so.
If you may agree and say, Fine, its like the egg which evolves into a living creature, but the great architect aka God made the seed (or Big Bang).

That would change the whole concept of evolution and would confuse communication. And the base rule 'Survival of the fittest' is a tautology. It explains nothing and predict nothing. Eventually you may say: the survivers must have been the fittest, but you cannot see it before hand.

Zaa Nayazu wrote:

But since computers overcame humans, they have to find a way to live together, and that fits exactly with the law of survival, the strongest. Maybe also computers are getting some "will" and "interests"

For the first section: Actually there are only humans who live and survived so far. AI stuff is up to noe simply fiction. I don't take for granted it might go the way of Matrix, Terminator, AI et.al.

Why not, i mean, i am not an expert, i agree that it is har for us to even conceive it (at the end is Sci-Fi... still...). I know that human emotions are the defining point of our very nature, but wouldn`t a new rising intelligence find a way to develope such a thing, maybe similar?, or why is it that many programs show those kind of "emotions" in the trilogy?. I like this conversation tho