»Why Matrix Answers All Questions!«

shidoshi100 wrote:

Smith doesn't "forget his lines." There are no lines for him to speak. When Smith has "seen this before," it is because this has happened with the previous "One's"... That is why Smith saw himself win through the Oracle's eyes... The previous One's did not get up... It is like prophet above stated... although Neo believes he is making a choice throughout the entire movie, there is only one choice he actually makes... and the choice he makes is to get up and keep fighting... The "One" has always made it to the machine city... Smith is no accident . The "One" has always faught Smith... the only difference is that Neo chooses to get up (this is the real choice... not actually going to the machine city). (Question: Why do you keep on getting up, you must know that you will lose... Response: Because I choose to...)

i thought that the Architect had said that the previous Ones had taken the right door (not the left one) and returned to the Source? like, in M1 when he's running from the Agents and Tank tells him to take the left door, and Neo goes right? so unless the Architect lied (or i heard him wrong) then the prevous Ones always opted to destroy Zio, save the Matrix that way and rebuild, where Neo took the left door. this would say to me that Smith didn't replicate himself like that before, hence the lines in M2:

Smith 1: It's happening exactly as before.

Smith 2: Well, not exactly.

that leads me to believe that Smith's contact with the other Ones didn't result in his death. as a matter of fact, it didn't result in the death/rebirth of them, either. from all of what Smith said during the scene with Morpheus, it seemed like he'd been around for some of the previous incarnations of the Matrix, and wanted done with it. so, when he saw Neo get up after dying, he knew the rules had changed, so he could too. i think that this is the first time Smith went all kablooey like that.

Good thoughts in this thread. Personally, I think the Smith-virus aspect was not present in the previous "integral anomalies." Smith's choice is one of many that led to the Revolutions (and may be interepreted as one of them I suppose).

TRS

Kablooey?

These are all good points .

I however think the Smith conversation, although interesting, really doesn't matter if they get answered or not... I am less annoyed after watching the third movie, and relieved that most answers were there...

Shidoshi100

BIGANT wrote:

and if all the previous ones fought the multiple smiths what happened after smith beat the previous ones? how did the matrix get rid of smith and start over again to create the next setup for the one?

A better question being... if this has already happened before, why doesnt the Matrix fix the bug within Smith to keep him from multiplying and causing a problem from happenening. This would be the more LOGICAL thing for a computer program to do. This would eliminate the need for Neo to go in and beat Smith, therefore allowing the machines to destroy Zion, as was said by the Architect.

At this point its clear and simple, Smith is a gatekeeper within Matrix v.6 that became a virus when some malicious code was inserted into his programming (via losing to Neo the first time). At this point he is an anomaly within the matrix just as Neo is, but since his code changed, he has grown beyond the control of the machines, unlike "The One", who was orignally written by the Architect and is therefore within a realm of control.

The way i see it, the end scene with Neo and Smith, is there to sum up the whole "choice" idea thats been carried throughout the movie. Smith says "why do you keep getting up" and Neo says "because i choose to". Basically, Neo has freedom of choice, and smith does not.

Just before Smith is about to "delete" Neo, he realises that he doesn't have a choice. He knows that he will be ultimately destroy himself (no Neo = No Smith), but he can't stop himself, because all he can do is clone himself, and he doesnt have any CHOICE. Hence the look of surprise on his face when he clones over Neo.

Basically; Smith's own self-destruction is due to he's inability to be able to choose...

Extension on that last post's ideas...

The way I saw it was that Neo and Smith are counterparts. Specifically, Neo is the power of choice and Smith is the power of inevitability. They are so good at exercising their specific powers, too. For example, Smith acts very predictably , finding the Oracle and learning everything he wants to hear, knowing that he has already been chosen as the winner. Neo on the other hand has so much choice in him that not even the oracle knows what he will do. At the end, Smith struggles to figure out why Neo continues to persist, why he keeps getting up. Neo answers, Because I choose to. When Neo choses to die, this choice is so powerful that it triggers his innermost power, activating his anti-smith abilities, and Smith is killed. That's what I thought.

trs_94 wrote:

Good thoughts in this thread. Personally, I think the Smith-virus aspect was not present in the previous "integral anomalies." Smith's choice is one of many that led to the Revolutions (and may be interepreted as one of them I suppose). TRS

hmmzz I think the Oracle plays a part here I reken..

She offers Neo some candy this could have been the virus code being injected into Neo which in turn he passes onto Smith when Neo enters him.

I wanna say one thing. Something as predestination in theory doesnt excist.... and i mean in the context of the movie. If someone as the oracle knows what happens in the future.... it will have a paradoxal countereffect. the knowledge about what happens in the future, will change the perspect and knowledge of the future itself.... so it wont be that same knowledge of the future anymore. Thats what the oracle means when she says:'you cant look past the choises you dont understand'

About the movie itself.... the machines have a choise to make.... Let Neo take a shot or not....

Prophet wrote:

Why do they lay Neo down with such care when he 'dies'? Why do they stop the attack on Zion? Why do they so carefully carry Neo out (unknown location)? They had what they wanted - Smith gone, Neo out, why not now destroy Zion and get it over with? The answer is simple - that was not the plan. The plan was to unite. At the end, those humans that wish to, will be set free and disconnected from the Matrix. The Creator and the Oracle want peace and so do the Machines. They do not know how long peace will last for one reason yet again - they do not understand the choices humans make. They want peace, but they do not know when the humans will decide to wage war again. What do you think?

Hobbes would have us believe that simply agreeing to something, making a contract under your own free will with someone else, is reason enough to follow through with your side of the deal. Whether such action is beneficial to you still at the time when you are required to do it is irrelevant - you said you would, and hence you must. When asked by the Oracle whether he will adhere to his agreement with Neo, the Architect responds "What do you think I am, Human?" almost to indicate that breaking a contract already made is something Humans, not Machines, do. Following Hobbesian thought, the only rational thing to do once you have made a contract is follow through on your word, as best you can - the Machines are less influenced by "passions" (again, using the language of Hobbes) than humans. It is for this reason that I believe the Machines stopped attacking Zion and freed those who wanted to be - because they agreed to do so. Neo fulfilled his end of the deal, and so they must as well.

The Oracle can be thought of as the shrewdest manipulator in the movie!

Clearly, the other ones did not get back up. In fact, they never had the fight! They chose the other door, the one on the right. They had a profound attachment to the rest of their species (in the architect's words); Neo's attachment is far more specific (love, also in the architect's words). Hence the difference in choice of door.

I'm still trying to figure out what role the Oracle had in creating Smith. I tend to see the Oracle's "dangerous choice" as her letting Smith clone into her. The reason I see it this way is because creating Smith to malfunction from the very beginning seems too indirect, an overkill method of achieving peace (there's an easier way to do things, in other words).

shidoshi100 said he was frustrated by people not getting the connections in the movie. personally, Im frustrated with his arrogant tone. Throwing in an emoticon after every sentence may make you feel better about your post, but in the end you only look foolish, especially because your theory is off (just like everyone else, myself included).

One crucial point has been missed in this whole argument - why did the machines need Neo in order to destroy Smith?

Whatever they did to Neo's body once he had been taken over by Smith (surge of electricity, inputting a virus deletion program, etc.) they could have done to any person still connected to the Matrix, that had also been taken over by Smith.

OK, so Neo has a special connection directly with the Source, but that doesn't seem like enough of a reason....

Having Neo die (?) also neatly ties up the story, and reinforces his image as the Christ figure who makes the ultimate sacrifice for the salvation of humanity.