»The reason for the machines not building solar panels.«

Hi everyone!
I've been visiting this forum regularly for a couple of months and finally have something to post.

I'm surpised that a few forumers are still baffled by why the machines didn't build tall solar panels above the clouds to get an alternate source of enegry as opposed to using humans.

This was rather clearly explained in Revolutions when the Logos raised briefly above the clouds. Notice that there were severe electrical storms within the clouds. All the sentients attached to the Logos were electrocuted (not by Neo, but by the lightings). The Logos itself was disabled, thus crashing back to earth very soon after it was above the clouds.

I believe that the clouds act as a barrier to any machine presence, thus preventing them from building any solar panels towers above the clouds. (Neo somehow knew about this. That's why he told Trinity to fly the Logos above the clouds to shake off / avoid the machine defenses.)

Of course, this raised another question as to why the machines didn't develop a method to harness power from the electrical storms.

But at least, we've got the "solar panels" issue covered.

Cheers!

Correct on that... the clouds seem to be primarily to keep the Machines from spreading.

It's logistically difficult to use the clouds as a power source... lightning is a fickle friend and surges and variations in the cloud level would fry the generators before long anyway.

Like before, the big question is, though: Why didn't the machines use ANY OTHER POWER SOURCE available? Natural power is always cheaper than bio-power.

Also, to note:

Aircraft get hit by lightning all the time, and suffer little ill effect. Lightning generally chooses the quickest path through any object... which is usually the outer shell of any mechanical artifact... the Squids shouldn't have been affected by mere lightning... meaning there's something else in those clouds, maybe?

Quote:

the Squids shouldn't have been affected by mere lightning... meaning there's something else in those clouds, maybe?

Agreed.
All we know for sure is that the machines can't get above the clouds for some reason.

There are construction methods to use that will allow you to remain below the clouds, but move the pannels above the clouds.

Not only that, but you can insulate the buildingmaterial so the electricity could flow on the inside of it.

Or at least put a huge lightning conductor up and harness the power of the electrical storms.

KBK

VERY GOOD POINT!

This may mean:

1) machines have always been trying to harness enough energy to leave the dump we call Earth. (level of existence talk by the architect M2)
2) something is not letting them get past the barrier because maybe the machines shouldn't know something important like their REAL origins and the invisible hand that controls them, blinds them from the truth, and puts them in check (just like what the machines did to the humans).
- the alien theory holds strong ground here it seems.

Thanks for the critical thought...Neo might in fact have a clue as to what's really going on.

What about all the other energy sources?

Wind power? Hydrogen power? Nuclear Power? Geo-Thermal Power? Battery Power? Electrical Power? Natrual Gas? Fossil Fuels?

There are SO many different sources of power - don't tell me keeping Humans in a "dreamstate" in pods is the best way to get energy. Then they create this elaborate "Matrix" which is not needed when all the machines are doing is using humans for "power".

Doesn't the human incubation demand more energy then they put out?

u build a tall tower above the clouds, solar panels atop em and then isolate em with rubber...problem solved

no humans no matrix crap

you can build insulated towers and such ... that is not what is in question.

the thing in question is the point that machines probably already tried that and something far about the clouds will just DESTROY it for the fear of being seen. nothing accept "human" craft like the LOGOS (the ship neo and trininity was on) can barely reach the cloud level AND even neo and trinitiy didn't get to see into far outer space (because neo didn't intend for them to go into outer space ... he may know that something is out there/trinity just wanted to see the sky and nothing beyond it ... neo just wanted to get away from the machines).

there may be something out there that prevents anything from leaving or at least seeing it.

good points...

plus, insulation won't work for the clouds...

c'mon... machines that are hard to kill with energy weapons, destroyed by mere lightning... give me a break... there is some high level energy or radiation up there...

Has anyone considered the fact that the earth is spinning and therefore a solar panel would only have power for less than 12 hours per day.

You're all wrong! The reason the machines didn't use solar power or any other kind of power is because otherwise we wouldn't have a super cool trilogy like the Matrix. Then we wouldn't be able to come here and talk about solar power. And then I wouldn't be able to correct you like I am right now.

So as you can see, the universe revolves around me.

unlike humans i dont believe that the machines have a sense of ambition...

they do not strive for space travel...their own logic would dictate that upgrades are only done when neccessary or are more efficient...

in the real world they have remained unchallanged for up to 600 years(if there have been 6 matrices and each was 100 years) and so it is likely that the hardware in the real world has changed little in that time with the exeption of machines to destroy the humans(flying bomb things)

the software is probably updated and improved constantly but the hardware remains reletively unchanged...

so by thier logic...the matrix "provides the machines with all the power they would ever need"...so why would they "strive" to change that

if it aint broke...

I have two theories on why the machines never built atll solar panels:

1) "Scorching the sky" not only covered the sky with clouds, but creasted an extremely strong electromagnetic field that the machines are unable to function within. Perhaps the lightning that we saw was a very intense high-energy lightning that the machines are unable to shield themselves from. perhaps, anything above the clouds is the equivalence of an EMP pulse.

2) The machines prefer to use humans as a power source for some kind of emotional reason like love or revenge. Maybe they are unwilling to kill the human race off because they see us as their parents, but they cannot allow us to be free or else we'll try to kill them again. Or they are still bitter from us trying to kill them in the first place and want to torture us. Or they might enjoy the Matrix as something they could notpower on their own without free will and choice provided by humans.

Otherwise, it does seem too easy to build solar panels otherwise. Even if machines couldn't reach above the clouds, they could build the panels on the ground and raise them with poles. And the day/night thing doesn't work because they could span the world solar panels. It also might be implied that all other resources (oil, coal, gas, nuclear) had all been used up. Alhough, fusion would be difficult to use up. It's an interesting topic, because in my opinion it is the greatest "suspension of disbelief" to think that the machines couldn't find a more efficient power source than human energy.

Kayback-MORE wrote:

Not only that, but you can insulate the buildingmaterial so the electricity could flow on the inside of it.

it's not only the lightning. if the black cloud thing has been up there for that long despite changes in weather patterns, it's pretty likely that there is a kind of electromagnetic disruption that would affect transmissions of any kind, power included.

Kayback-MORE wrote:

Or at least put a huge lightning conductor up and harness the power of the electrical storms.

lightning is too sporadic to really "harness," as has been shown by the studies done at the lightning station that's here in the US. big surge, big voltage, little actual current.

I Think the answer is much more to do with the Second Renaisance.

We see an agreement at the UN signed by the machines and the humans.

The machines insist that humans "surrender the flesh" which leads to the captivity and creation of the Matrix power plant.

But any agreement has to have two sides, so what was it that the machines promised the humans in return for their submission?

Well to take ideas from the cold war and concepts like "balance of power", it has to be something that will guarantee the survival of the human race. Effectively to make the machines as dependent on the matrix (physically)as the humans are (psycologically).

What better than to insist that the machines are fobidden from seeking alternative power sources.

This has been suggested before, and the response is usually, "well what's to stop them going back on the agreement".

Well that's one answer Revolutions did provide

Quote:

Oracle: I have your word? Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

Thats just plain stupid...i mean if that is true, what is the prime meaning of machines existance, they have all that power and resources, so what do they do with it, and with themselves, is the only thing in their lives to keep the humans captive? Dont they do any research?, dont they want to explore anyhting?, dont they want to make life better for themselves? What drives them to live? At the end of revolutions machines turned out to be the stereotype bad guys whose sole purpose in life is to be big bad slavers of the human race.

calm down john...everybody is entightled to an opinion...

as for the machines striving to make thier lives better

i cant see the sentinals clocking off after a shift busily hunting humans and say"lets go down the pub for a couple of pints lads"

the machines will produce a machine to counter problems...

the diffenerce between humans and machines is that machines can "work tirelessly" to achieve their goals therfor no single machine needs any time to improve thier life

the machines will only strive to travel in space when there becomes a reason for them to leave earth...they wont do it purely out of ambition because it is illogical...

look at human endervours for space travel...we didnt NEED to go into space but because we wanted to then several lives have been lost

the machines act on neccessity and not ego or desire

Think about this, Machines live by the fact that if its useless than delete it. Tell me, what is the point of just harnessing humans and enslaving them if theres not point to it. ONE thing that I got from Revolutions is that machines have emotions i.e Satti and her parents WANTED for there child to live. There is nothing that said it was needed. So if machines exist just to enslave humans and not do anything than they would have no use to live, thus they need to explore and discover/upgrade if they dont they contridict what they live for.


Now to get in space thats easy, dont use electronic, use bionic. Creat a "Machine" thats not a machine, a bionical something that is alive like humans and that can use mechanical tools, to rebuild and recolonize. With the effieciancy and rate of ideas shown in Animatrix, they could easily do this.

Machines can feel your forgetting this, they NEED to explore or they cant exist they need to grow, just like humans we NEED change if everything was the same we would have no point in life.
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Another theory is that as said in Animatrix humans agreed, so maybe the humans on Earth are slaves, while a supperior race of humans colonized space or say Mars, that was the agreement Machines have Earth and are limited to it, Humans leave and expand. Lots of theories here and there valid think about them.

Maybe their drive to explore is focused on Humanity. It seems that emotions is something that they are still developing. Maybe they want to understand humans because it seems that they are becoming more and more human. Or maybe they have a desire to become more human like Data from Star trek:TNG. After all, they were created by humanity.

Someone in another thread had brought up Asimov's Robot laws. Perhaps there is something of variation of those laws going on where the robots cannot allow the human race to die. Here's an idea that is probably not intended, but it's an interesting idea. What if the robots in signing the treaty, were charged with keeping humanity alive? It takes up all their resources so they can't explore other options of energy sources. However, they have an out because they could allow humans the choice to destroy themselves, hence Neo's two doors. Maybe the Architect was hoping that Neo would choose the door on the right. There are levels of existence that they are willing to accept, maybe it's what they wanted. Again, I don't actually believe that this is an intended interpretation, but I think it would have been an interesting twist.

bachsoffice wrote:

they have an out because they could allow humans the choice to destroy themselves

Yeah, this certain adds interesting possibilities to the sceme of things.

I wonder if statistically, the matrix has a high number of staircases with rollerskates on them. Or some form of conditioning which encourages humans to run with scissors.

(with some discrete program near by whistling innocenty and looking skyward )

marl64 wrote:

But any agreement has to have two sides, so what was it that the machines promised the humans in return for their submission?

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The humans dont get exterminated! mankind lives on even if it is as slaves.


The scorched sky is a metaphore, it is man himself who created the barrier and therefore enslaved himself.

Massive ionisation, gamma radiation....who knows why the machines cant get past it, but some posts are correct, the machines have all the power they need and bend all their will at humans rather than wasting resorces on something they dont NEED to do.

13ullet...you have some good points...but they also favour my argument in the sense that i said machines act on neccessity...they only act when there is a reason too...

while at some point they may NEED to have the ability for space travel...they will not act until this need arises...they will not space travell simply for the sake of it...

Well if they didnt get the need for it in 600 years then they wont get it at all...it was a nato-machine war, machines won and instead of moving on they built their big bad matrix o spooky....not
Ok it goes something like this... You win the war, enslave the humans,harness power from them, you prosper.
And what then? If machines lacked any WILL to do anything besides that then why did they rebel in the first place? Whats the point?

You know, there's two things being assumed here that aren't necessarily true. One is that there are better sources of power than Human energy and the other is that the Machines aren't tapping other resources for energy. The Machines are most definitely using other sources of energy because when Neo says that the machines wouldn't allow the entire human race to die, the Architect tells him that they will be able to sustain their existence (there are levels of existence we are willing to accept). About the first assumption, I think the Wachowski brothers would have us believe that Human energy IS the best source available.

As for the necessity to go into space, the Machines must find it necssary to go into space at some point. Resources on Earth are finite. If the machines have a survival instinct (which they have proven by rebelling), then they must be working on a solution to what happens when they run out. Unless we are to believe that the Human power plant is extremely close to 100% efficient or that all power is recycleable. And don't tell me that the machines are just waiting for it to become a ncessity, because they've also proven that they are proactive.

thats my point excactly...they will travel into space when given a NEED to do so and not before