»True Matrix Revolution explained, without the mumbo jumbo .«

But Neo doesn't have telekenetic power.

He can move things in the matrix but that is because he is in an unreal world and has a greater level of ability than the other humans in the matrix. In fact the nearest thing to his ability that can be found is in... exile programs!

He can shut down or blow up sentinels, not bend them. He only has power to shut them down because he can control things connected to the source. How can he do this when not connected in any way to the matrix? Because of "the one" anomaly program that can still be found working in the matrix as well as being inside his body.

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I know it's hard for you to accept this. Even Neo was uncertain of this prophecy about "the one" being the great savior. After his conversation with the Architect, he found out the truth and broke the sad news to Morpheus about the lies and false phophecy.

Was it really false? The prophecy said that Neo would end the war when he reached the main frame, (source).

This actually came true, so how was it false?

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Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Keep in mind, the room where Neo met the architect is NOT the source. He still has to walk through of the door to reach "THE SOURCE". That is when he learn the hard truth that by walking through door that "the one" is suppose to walk through it would would only reset the Matrix and start over with 23 humans to rebuild Zion. So in essence, this is not really saving Zion. I don't think saving 23 selected humans from the Matrix fullfills the prophecy of saving humans in Zion!

The War did not end until Matrix 3 Revolution, That is when Neo makes a final decission to go straight to "THE SOURCE" in the machine city. He then made a deal with, with the Machine to get rid of the Smiths whom is causing a great deal of trouble inside the Matrix. In return, the Machines would stop attacking the humans in Zion and allow humans still plugged in to make choice to be plugged in or not.

The "Source" is the "Main Frame", they are one in the same. The Architect told Neo that He must return to the Source by Midnight, so it clearly was not referring to when Neo visited the Architect.

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Neo: The Architect told me that if I didn't return to the Source, Zion would be destroyed by midnight tonight.

The Source and the MainFrame are one and the same....

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The Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time, and when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to The Source. Neo: The machine mainframe? The Oracle: Yes.

The visit to the Architect was not at the source because the Architect told Neo he has to go through yet one more door to get there.

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Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion.

I agree with everything you said above this post, but you still don't understand why the prophecy of "the one" is a LIE. Please read my "False Prophecy" post again. It is two posts above this one.

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He only has power to shut them down because he can control things connected to the source. How can he do this when not connected in any way to the matrix? Because of "the one" anomaly program that can still be found working in the matrix as well as being inside his body.

A program that is still inside Neo's body and also still inside the Matrix. This is exactly the part that troubles me the most.

I reapect the theory that Neo has a program in him, although I don't think that it is expressed very well if that is what the W-bros intended. It is the problem of Neo storing code within his human body, while that same code is with his consciousness at the same time in the Matrix? This seems too confusing, far fetched and flawed, even though it has some minor credance.

I think Neo having supernatural powers, (as Jesus did), is also a valid possibility, but can not seem to get an acknowledgement that it might be a valid possibility as well.

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Please read my "False Prophecy" post again

Some how my browser had not picked up your latest post until after I posted mine.

Very good point. However, (you knew that however was coming), I would hope that you would admit that there weren't very many humans left when Neo did save the world either. Maybe a few hundered or a few thousand, but he did end the war, which was the main point of the prophecy and he did it after he finally reached the heart, or source of the machine world which is where he was told he had to go by the Architect in order to fulfill the prophecy.

If Neo did take the door at that time, then the Prophecy would have been a lie, but he didn't. Maybe the Oracle knew he wouldn't and therefore the prophecy was true afterall.

Freedom wrote:

If Neo did take the door at that time, then the Prophecy would have been a lie, but he didn't. Maybe the Oracle knew he wouldn't and therefore the prophecy was true afterall.

Very good, at least now we are speaking on same wavelength. When Neo realized that walking through the door to the source like "the one" program was suppose to, it will only save 23 humans. This is when he realize the prophecy was a lie and another form of control.

The reason Neo said "the prophecy is a lie" is that, getting to the source is suppose to end the war and Zion get saved , but instead, it would only save a mere 23 humans.

That is why Neo made the decision to go through the other door to save Trinity and eventually find another way to "source" via the machine city.

But you missed my point of the prophcey not being a lie because he didn't go through the door. In the end the prophcey was true, he ended the war and after he went to the source.

I think you are both saying pretty much the same thing. The prophesy was originally a lie. The oracle herself said she couldn't see what would happen in the end so she didn't exactly prophesy it.

However, despite this, the prophesy does BECOME true in the end.


Back to what I was saying about Neo having a program in the matrix AND in his body - there shouldn't be a problem with this. If Smith can do it then why can't Neo? Smith has program all over the place in the matrix and is still able to have program inside of Bane's body outside of the matrix. Smith does have a connection with Neo after all.

Neo is all program and all human. No probs.

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If Smith can do it then why can't Neo?

Smith was a Virus, Neo is a human, not the same.

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Neo is all program and all human.

I guess since the W-Bros wrote the script and it is their movie then they can say green is red and it must be O.K.

Here is my problem with M3....

The first two start off making me believe that Neo is a hero and has supernatural powers and is the savior of Zion similar to the way Jesus had supernatural powers.

M1 and M2 are all about Choice winning over Causality. While M3 is about Causality winning over choice and Freedom.

The W-Bros are for maximum government control in their beliefs and are a huge proponent of Causality.

Choice is the way we say people are to be held accountable for their actions, while Causality says nobody is responsible for their own actions.

This Causality theory is one that is believed by many in todays society and is one of the reasons why people think incorrectly and allow evil to exist, (since no one is responsible, then how can they be evil?)

To understand Causality and its battle against Freedom, see....

m4jor_p41n wrote:

I agree with everything you said above this post, but you still don't understand why the prophecy of "the one" is a LIE. Please read my "False Prophecy" post again. It is two posts above this one.

finally someone agrees with me...

the prophecy is false in the sense that it was purely a way to control the otherwise uncontrollable anomaly that was neo and his predecessors...

as morpheus said in m1...they are bound by the rules of the system and neo is not...the prophecy was more than likely told to morpheus at a time when zion is beginning to grow beyond the levels of acceptability from the machines point of view as well as the anomaly(neo) beginning to realise the truth of the matrix....

he must then be lured to the source so as he does not disrupt the matrix from within

But in the end, did the prophecy really matter? Did Neo act on his own, or was he compelled?

Which Religion won? Freedom and Choice or Force and Causality?

I don't think the prophecy really matters in the end. Choice and causality are all linked to each other. The "choice" we make in life have a "cause and effect". It all begins with choice and the "cause and effect" comes after as a consequence of the choice we make.

Eventually, Neo 's unique choice was what made him different from previous ones. Neo's choice for the door to save Trinity was based on love. It was a bold choice by Neo. Nonetheless, it all worked out the end and there was peace. So the question is, if you were the one, what choice would you have made, which door would you pick if you were in the Architect's room?

a) Left door- leads back to the matrix to save the love of your life
b) right door - reset the matrix and save 23 humans to rebuild Zion

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It all begins with choice

Boy do I agree with you on this, but the w-bros are believers only in Causality and they believe and protray in M3 that choice does not matter.

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Morpheus: Everything begins with choice. Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion

I am with you, choice does matter, but not to the w-bros. They want us to believe that Neo had no choice.

I don't think Neo acted alone, he was guided in his journey by the Oracle. Choice was introduced by the Oracle as a way to make the matrix seem real and more interactive, therefore more people accepted the matrix and less people were waking up. But from a mathematical design perspective (architect) choice and causality creates many more variables and possibly would have infinite results which would make it harder to predict the outcome. Just like pi, (3.14) , many super computers today have yet to calcutate or predict a pattern to the right of the decimal, it is an irrational number with infinite patterns which can not be predicted.

Nonetheless, the Oracle's solution of choice is a good compromise. Although the design of future Matrix will never be a utopia or perfect world due to choice and causality.

Freedom, what is mom? And what is so special about apple pie? And what makes you think that the Wachowskis don't want people thinking for themselves?

To be fair, the very fact that the wachowskis have made the matrix movies so complex suggests that they WANT people to think for themselves.

The movies all make perfect sense and I don't see what science has to do with it.

As for saying Neo is human so he can't do what Smith can - rubbish! In the first movie they make a point of saying that the programs must rely on rules while humans can break them. Neo is human so he should, if anything, be able to break MORE rules than Smith. Smith has been described as the opposite side of the equation to Neo (by the oracle) so Neo should be able to pretty similar things to Smith (if not the cloning thing). Neo should be able to (and does) exist in the matrix and a human body just like Smith does.

As for whether Neo has a choice - well of course he does! But like the oracle says... he's already made the choice and simply needs to understand it. At the end he clearly states he is only continuing because he 'chooses' to. Revolutions is totally AGAINST the meravingion's closed minded ideas that things are set by causality. Neo chooses to do what he has to do and even the oracle didn't know that he would do - she simply believed.

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you think the Wachowskis don't want people thinking for themselves

Thinking for oneself and governing oneself are two different things.

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chooses to do what he has to do

Choice means you have at least one option that you don't have to make.

He either chooses to do it or he has to do it (Causality), it can't be both.

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Revolutions is totally AGAINST the meravingion's closed minded ideas that things are set by causality.

I am so glad that you take it the way you do (in all sincerity). I am proud of you (no sarcasm intended), that their political beliefs did not suck you in.

But here are the facts:

1. The machines are still in control.
2. The machines killed most of the people in Zion.
3. The Architect can change his mind as soon as too many people wish to be free and the lack of batteries becomes a problem.
4. Neo and Trinity lost every battle they fought in M3 except for the suicide death of Neo when he gives his life for those few left in Zion.
5. The machine leader gets off scott free for killing the people in this and 5 previous Matrix Programs.

The W-bros are pacifists and want to "just get along", hence the ending was as expected for me as soon as I studied their philosophies and affiliations (such as their love of Nihilism...for example see

I already know that revolutions:
(a) wasn't as good as the first two movies and
(b) wasn't as popular as the first two.

However, after reading that article of yours about Cornel West I do not see what you are trying to say. Revolutions finished the messiah story with a victory for mankind (though it is also a kind of compromise, a 'peace'). I don't think the wachowski's 'like' nihilism. The idea of having a gap in baudrillards book where the chapter 'on nihilism' is makes perfect sense. If you have a belief in nothing then it will leave you incomplete. The article seemed to say that West's philosophy deals with the problems of nihilism.

It's all very well saying you knew how the movie would end now. I would have been more convinced had the movie not yet been released.

To me the movie is about overcoming nihilism and doing things for yourself. I don't see how Neo's actions could possibly be seen as simply 'giving in'. Neo does what he does (in his own words) "because I choose to". Not only that but he defeats the bad guy who encompasses nihilism.

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The Wachowski brothers seized upon Baudrillard's general nihilistic notion

I am looking for my other sorces where I read that they loved Nihilism and Causality. They said it in an Interview (on CNN if my memory serves me correctly.)

They want you to think that Neo did only what he had to do, he had no choice.

W-bros believe that no one is free to do what they want, they must do as their past environment has programmed them to do. Of coarse this means people are not responsible for their actions, cigarette companies are responsible for Cancer, not the people who smoke....see the article on Causality vrs Freedom....

But they blatantly DON'T believe in causality! That is why the Meravingion proposes it. He's the bad guy, we disagree. The oracle, the good character, says that Neo has to make choices and has to understand those choices. How can he have already made a choice if he never makes any choices?

The fact is that once you have made a choice and you have decided to stick with that choice, you then have to follow through with that choice. That is why Neo does what he does. Not because he is forced to by causality, but because he had to follow through with what he had decided to do.

Some would argue that Neo was forced to make the choices he has already made because of Causality. He went to the Maravingion because the w-bros want you to believe that he had no choice, because he was just following the path that was laid out for him by the Architect.

I agree that the idea that he has Choice is the good idea, but in the end the machines got exactly what they wanted....control and batteries without humans fighting them.

Trust me, the w-bros are big fans of Causality and Nihilism and they did not want a movie where the good guys win and the bad guys loose.

Is the Maravingion still around? Is the Machine Leader still around? Is the Architect still around? So which of the bad guys lost? Smith? He was against both humans and the machines so he doen't count since he never had control like the machines did/do.

People don't have to die in order to lose.

The Meravingion is still doing what he always did - trafficking information in the program underground.

The architect and the machine leader are still alive because Neo made peace with them. If he had not done so then the machines would have been killed by the Smith virus, all the people in the matrix would also have died, and the sentinels would have killed everyone in Zion.

The machines lost because they no longer have the control they had before. If people decide to leave then the machines are no longer allowed to stop them. If they DO try to stop them then Neo will return to kick some more butt - you can be pretty certain of that!

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If they DO try to stop them then Neo will return to kick some more butt - you can be pretty certain of that!

Who will return? Neo?

Let's just say that for the moment I accept the flawed position that "The One" is a program. Will "The One" return. If "The One" is just a program, and Neo is just Human, then it can't be a human that returns, right? If Neo does return, then he does have supernaural powers from God.

So if the machines have all their Main Bad Guys still around and the humans have Morpheus, and a few sniviling Zionites with wimpy guns, who is it that will win if "The One" program returns and it can not operate in the real world without Neo's body, (or can all humans carry "The One" program?)

And if as in the Animatrix the machines could restore the solar power, but choose not to, who is really in charge? Who is it that is really being unjust and is getting away with it? Winning?

Neo IS the one - and his body is dead now, so no he can't be human.

The machines can't restore the solar power - any machine that gets above the clouds stops working - like the ship in revolutions that gets above the clouds and then promptly messes up and begins to crash.