»Is Zion real or within a Matrix?«

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This poll is related to the pre-Revolutions poll located at

YOU NEED THREE CHOICES:

Zion is really really real
Zion is in a matrix
Zion is real but is made from gold code which happens to be be pretty similar to a green code matrix.

("What is real")

diemkai wrote:

YOU NEED THREE CHOICES: Zion is really really real Zion is in a matrix Zion is real but is made from gold code which happens to be be pretty similar to a green code matrix. ("What is real")

Why? He never even made it to Zion?

Zion is real...

What do you mean "he never" made it to ZION.?

I probably agree ZION is "real". But like morpheus asks "what is real"

diemkai wrote:

Zion is real but is made from gold code which happens to be be pretty similar to a green code matrix.

Theoretically correct, but this is the same as "Zion is real"

If Zion is code then Zion is a matrix - not real

It is possible to believe that no one saw reality and that there may even BE no reality y'know....

I think that Zion is real. The machine city was golden not Zion. The gold code was simply the view of machines and programs. Neo is the one and can see all programs - as a result he sees all the matrix machinery as golden just as he saw the inside of the matrix as green.

In matrix reveloutions neo seperated his mind and body from one another. This facilitated his ability to see what was going on in the real world when he was blind. Since Neo has discoverd how the matrix worked using his unusually free mind, he was able to bend and brake some rules.

If I were a machine then I would take notes of what was going in on the real world, as it is directly dependant on their survival to do so. I am implying that Neo, with his advance understanding in the mechanics of the matrix was able to access this information with his mind from the matrix and relay it back to his mind back in his body in the real world.

But this posses the question; how was he able to relay this information back to his mind in the real world? The answer to this question in anycase, is going to be intirely theoretical, as are any of my deductions in the post. But If Neo was trapped somewhere between the real world and the machine world (as implied by his abbility to sepperate his body from his mind trans-universally between worlds, then couldnt the matrix and real world (zion) come under the umbrella of some other more Universal (so to speak) World.

In any case, the matrix is clearly destinct from the real world and from all the evidence we have together; Zion is as real as theyre going to get. From a de Carte style of thinking we can presume that it is Real because from all the evidence we have because we think (used in the broadest sense possible) that it is real.

It is completely irrelevant that you think "Neo was seeing gold code in the machine world". He was able to relay information from one world to another though him seperating his body and his mind. The gold code that you see in the film is how they choose to show you how that he was able to sense his surroundings in this way.

In this trilogy we see machine and man fighting one another and quarreling like unreasonably agressive childish bullies. It was the ignorance of both that caused the quarell. They both simply just want to survive. It was not untill anyone thought logically that they could both live in peace. This is not a struggle between good and evil as suggested by Matrix 1. Nor a kind of 3 way push-shuve struggle between Human, The system and Rouge programs as suggested by matrix 2. But it is a complicated 4 way team fight between : -

1)Zion, man,and the associated programs e.g. surith and the oracle

2)Smith - a virus that simply just wants to surfice and convert all other matter into himself, "smith", coupled with his father who created him to ballance the equation (since there was a neo, an anti neo was required) - the archetect

3)Machine - they just want to live and flourish just like man. But man and machin have seggrigated them selves since the friction that happened when the appocaliptic battle took place.

4) The french bloke (the Marijanete or something) - He was expelled by the system (the machines) unsuccessfully, as for some reason he became a threat and became power crazed. Oracle "what do men with power want?.... more power". He is self centred and wants control (like smith) and therfore him and his footman (the 2 twins, his flock of vampires and other rouge programs). For this reason he cannot co-operate with Zion, Smith, or machine and becomes a team of his own.

All teams have their advantages and this is going to be a repeat of the Somme unless something else happens. After seeing matrix 2 (when I thought that there was only 3 teams, (Man-Zion) (Rouge programs - oracle,architect,frenchy power bloke,smith etc...) (Machine and the system). I thought that perhaps The rouges and the zionions would team up to destroy system as their wished for outcome seemed to complement each other more than any other combination of the possible team ups e.g:-
1)Zion + Machine Vs Rouges: What would this acheive for anyone
2)ZIon + Rouge VS machine: Hmmm this seems like everyone could be hapy
3)Rouge and Machine Vs Man: I doubt they would end the film this way. They would have a lot of unhappy fans lol.

So I was very supprised in matrix 3 to find that I was wrong about the teams.

Neo is as muhhumad is to muslims, as christ is to christians, as the dali lama is to budhists, as guru nanak is to sikhs. Neo is as these are to their respective communities to Man and Machine. Its just the machines dont realise it till they realise that "people are things too" (to them obviously) as to us we would have to think visa versa but replace the word people with machines. This was proberly the equivalent to an afro caribian turning upto a global KKK meeting and saying "Whats the problem? how can we solve it". The courage and the nobility of Neos confronation with the machines, the fact that he was willing to risk his life to help the machines (and zion) is when the machines realised this. At first the machines are over cautious and this is not unexpected -what would you do if bin laden knocked at your door and asked for a chat? But when there was a stituation of dis-contentment between both sides (a problem) they realised that they could overcome it together. The problem im refering to is the smith spreading problem.

Hurray machines and zions become tollerent to each other. They may tollerence may lead to either acceptance then civilization merging. Or something may happen to spark a riot again.

Is Neo dead? - sorry I have side tracked alot, I was going to write my opinion about it in this post but it would be best if I end this post here LOL. IF you finish reading this you are a propper die hard Matrix Fan and means you should talk to me sometime lol - Stupid email address

Fatpie42 wrote:

If Zion is code then Zion is a matrix - not real It is possible to believe that no one saw reality and that there may even BE no reality y'know.... I think that Zion is real. The machine city was golden not Zion. The gold code was simply the view of machines and programs. Neo is the one and can see all programs - as a result he sees all the matrix machinery as golden just as he saw the inside of the matrix as green.

Machine City appeared golden because it was how the "blinded" Neo saw it on his way there. He would have seen Zion as looking golden, but he had expired by then. When we saw Machine City looking golden, we were seeing it as Neo saw it without his human sight.

As for the golden color itself, this was energy Neo was seeing-- not code. Code looks like code, regardless of color. Neo wasn't seeing golden code as he was traveling to Machine City. Instead, Neo was seeing a "thermal" image of everything around him.

Wow. So 9% of the people on here have a splinter in our minds. Wonder what Archie would say about that? We should have an anomoly in no time.

zion is real. if it wasnt, all the arch would have to do is unplug it and reboot, not destroy it.

jaycee wrote:

zion is real. if it wasnt, all the arch would have to do is unplug it and reboot, not destroy it.

No, if I Remember Correctly: The Architect wanted to solve the problem with the constantly re-appearing anomaly (Neo)thus he had to run through the complete process. A simple rebooting of the system wouldn't take care of the anomaly!

IMO, the most likely scenario is that Zion is real.

If Zion was another layer of the matrix it would be based on the same rules as the first layer. We never saw anyone (or any machines) bend any physical rules in the Zion scenes.

You might argue that Smith and Neo bent rules when they were able to transfer from their native world to their nemisis's world. (I am talking about when Smith enters the human's body and when Neo communicated with the Sentinels in M2, exploding them in M3). However, this is not an example of rule bending as much as it is an example of showing how SOFTWARE/HARDWARE and MIND/BODY distinctions are isomorphic.

KNowme,

U misunderstood what i was saying.


Zion has to be real because Archie uses words like "re-build" and "destroy" when speaking of Zion. If it were a Matrix, then the whole dramatics of 250,000 sentinels and this big old war would be stupid. All he would have to do is "unplug" Zion and start over with Neo and crew. But what he was saying was that he will put Neo back into the Matrix to select 23 people, 16 female and 7 male with Neo being the 8th male (2 girls for every guy....my kinda world!) to "re-build" zion. Then after 100 years he will go in there and tear it down....again.

jaycee wrote:

KNowme, U misunderstood what i was saying. Zion has to be real because Archie uses words like "re-build" and "destroy" when speaking of Zion. If it were a Matrix, then the whole dramatics of 250,000 sentinels and this big old war would be stupid. All he would have to do is "unplug" Zion and start over with Neo and crew. But what he was saying was that he will put Neo back into the Matrix to select 23 people, 16 female and 7 male with Neo being the 8th male (2 girls for every guy....my kinda world!) to "re-build" zion. Then after 100 years he will go in there and tear it down....again.

Hehe, ok. I get it. =) But what a hassle! Was Zion rebuilt though? I don't know. I thought it was built and maintained. Arrrrgh, I'll take a nap now.

Zion is real. Period

You can't even say that the world we live in is REAL, so you are just stating your opinion when you say you believe Zion is real.

You must not have seen any of the "firecode" in IMAX. It has characters in it.

I believe Zion is the REAL world, but the Machines (this could be a bit farfetched) could have made a simulation of Zion in a different Matrix which holds its own sub-matrix visa vee the other Neos and visa vee explaining how the destroyed Zion so many time.

That is the best theory I have heard for a long time ...

What a pile of rubbish. Why would any of the previous Zion's not be real? - that's just silly!

Zion could be fake to help aid the Architect to balance his equations. But I don't think so.
Have you seen how huge the Real World is?
Why bother to waste so much energy on an extra Matrix for only -not even- 1% of the human-minds.
They just as well could kill them and feed them to the living.

Very funny

Why is it so hard to believe Zion is real?

as discussed in previous threads zion is very real and was created by the machines to catch and contain the inevitable spill over of people unplugged from the matrix as a result of the systemic anomoly
simple

I actually wonder whether knnknn still believes in his Matrix-within-a-matrix theory anymore. There's no reason why he wouldn't, but after the barrage of abuse it has taken and the distinct unpopularity of the theory he can't say that it is obvious anymore...

no doubt about it its really real!