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»Matrix -Hinduconcept ?«

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Symbols in the Matrix & References to existing philosophies

 

ralph_angelus

1 chant = $30 mil. + market penetration  

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lets examine the claim that the movie catered to the indian market, and the counterpoint that its a waste of money.

1. the movie was not made ONLY for the eastern market. the movie continued the christian and rationalist symbolisms it built up in the 1st, and hence lost none of its previously gained customers.

2. the movie isnt only for the indian market, but also for the whole of asia and the east, and even for the east-influenced audience in the west. beagle, u liked the movie, right?

3. the movie made abt $3 mil. during the opening season in china. and abt india, i quote the warner bros manager or something from india.

Quote:

“This is the first time in history that India is part of a simultaneous worldwide release,” says Blaise Fernandes, Managing Director, Warner Bros. India. “Another unprecedented distribution scenario is that ‘The Matrix Revolutions’ will be released in India in four different languages on the same date and time as the rest of the world. The movie will be dubbed in Tamil,Telugu and Hindi and will release concurrently with the English version at 7:30 pm on November 5th, across India. No other country will release the film in so many versions in tandem with the rest of the world.
so its not just an english movie. and beleive me, even people illiterate in english will watch a movie with enough action or sex. the movie-goers here are highly uncritical.

the movie thrice or at least twice that which the reloaded made, which is abt $10mil. add china, and a lot of other countries in asia, and u have a sizeable amount. consider this : u get $20 or 30 million extra, and all u have to is add a few verses on the soundtrack and an indian family. sounds a pretty good deal to anyone. that maybe only 15-20% of the u.s. earnings, but its abt more than just the earnings for this single movie. considering the warner bros desire to penetrate the asian market, this is an excellent precedent and their best foot forward. its undeniable that m3 was an pathbreaker for the warner bros in the east.

bEagle wrote:

For those who are stuck on only one perspective, the movie ‘appears’ to have shifted in M2 and M3

that is of course a logical impossibility. if they are stuck they wont be able to perceive the other perspectives. and its not a simple shift. it allows people of the older perspective to continue in their beliefs as well, while ignoring the new one.

bEagle wrote:

Maya as matrix is Vedantic/Budhist concept

what abt gnostic dualism between matter and spirit? christian dichotomy between physical reality and spiritual reality? but some people cant acknowledge it, because :

bEagle wrote:

What they really ignore and fail to acknowledge is that M2 and M3 were really intended to made as a ‘Red Pill’ to those who are stuck on one thing.

and they also need to acknowledge that raising stupid and contradictory arguments behind the pretence of principle or syncretism simply because they are annoyed with other people is.... Screwy anyway, its ok, i forgive them, because as somebody said :

bEagle wrote:

their tone gets dismissive and underhanded.

consciousness is the anoying time between naps
dr-edward.com...
dr-edward.com...
ralph_angelus

choice is an illusion... no way  

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aditya, i read that review, yes its quite good, although he is rather vague on the 'religion'. but i disagree on his view that good needs evil to exist. there are many reasons, but mainly because of my concept of god. according to hindu philosophy god may be 'nirguna brahman', but i beleive in a god with qualities, and at least one quality : love. and he is not detached, but takes interest in his creatures, because he loves them.

the biggest message i got from the movie was abt choice. it has always been confusing to me as how our choices would matter if it were all predestined by causality. until they reached 01, trinity was his driving force, and it his love for her that is his motive for doing all the things he does. but she dies, and that motive disappears to a degree. smith asks him whether it is because of love, or justice or whatnot. but he says 'i choose to' and nothing abt why. and since trinity is dead, there really is no reason. i think this kind of choice - pure, uninfluenced, stand-alone choice, is the true kind. and it is THIS choice which gives meaning to love, peace, freedom and all that. so if u look at it this way causality is not a problem. i've said it very badly, but brian takle says it better, in his review which you MUST read :

wylfing.net...

tell me what u think

adityadash1984 wrote:


As far as M1 being the Christian movie and all that, try this: the scene of Neo meeting everyone in Zion and trying to help them was banned in Lebanon since they try to portray Neo as Jesus. As far as Christian elements are concerned they are consistent throughout the trilogy.

so ur saying it definitely has christian symbols?

Quote:

I agree with you on the note that in M3 the Hindu elements became obvious.

yes. but some very enlightened people know more abt indian philosophy than us poor indians, and they knew it was abt maya when they saw the first movie itself. maybe even before they saw the movie.

Quote:

The key element in attaining success in a foriegn market is to adopt to local customs.

yes ofcourse. and in the case of a movie, wouldnt that mean including cultural symbols? like in m3.

btw aditya where r u from, what r u doing etc.? i'm from cochin, in the 11th doing sci/math/comp

adityadash1984

About the review  

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well i had already read the review that you reccomended. It pretty good. The one in metaphilm is unique. Maybe you are true as far as the theory concerning the changes in M2 and M3 were driven by profit motives. I for one do not buy it.

So you are a 11th grader doing sciences. Good luck cause your gonna need it. Most of your peers must be trapped in a world of endless tutions and cramming. I hated those years. More on that later.

HORSE WITH NO NAME
ralph_angelus

by nature of design?  

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if u look at them as changes or patches its hard to beleive. but what if they were designed with a global market in mind?

thanx, but i'm a last minute crammer and i dont go for tuitions, because i most probably wont attempt the engg/med entrance. more interested in basic sciences.

KathyLocca

Quack  

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“some very enlightened people know more abt indian philosophy than us poor Indians” are you saying we westerners know less about philosophy? Why are saying this? You know, if I want avoid a quack, I should avoid you and if you want to avoid a quack, you should avoid yourself. How can you call a person Screwy and forgive that person in the same sentence? I noticed you being unnecessarily offensive and insulting to Vedanta in the Schrodinger thread and when confronted you got all apologetic and said "I am just 16, I said that just for fun" What is your excuse now?

Fatpie42

  

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I think that's a bit harsh. There aren't many people on this forum who have come up with such amazing stuff as Ralph and there have certainly been more offensive individuals by far.

Also Ralph never says that westerners know less philosophy. He says that some people know more about INDIAN philosophy than INDIANS do! This is meant to show that if the matrix was about Indian philosophy then more people would have noticed. Also the very fact that Adityadesh says there are consistent Christian symbols means that it makes more sense to see it in that way than as Hindu.

As for adityadesh's criticism about the scene in Zion where Neo says "I'll try" to help people. I think that is more due to the gnostic Christian aspects rather than a contradiction of the Christian allegory altogether. Neo is definately shown as having limits and this is just as contrary to Vishnu's nature as it is to Jesus'.

"I am more than man, more than life! I am a GOD!"
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KathyLocca

  

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Fatpie, I disagree. I also thought about Maya when I saw M1 and I know many around me who thought that. So many websites surfaced during those days who explianed that in that perspective also. I don't think only christian perspective existed in M1. and that goes for M2 and M3. The movie doesn't make sense if intepreted only in christian perspective or only any other single perspective. Adityadash doesn't say "you cannot use Hindu concept", he just say "Yes, there are christan concepts all overin the trilogy". I feel all perspectives are needed in these movies. And Ralph is trying to imply a westerners view on this thread doesn't count much becuse he is in India and they are not. He seem like a rat to me pandering to a certain bias. I am new here, so your are right, there might be more offensive and rabidly bigoted people on this site than this guy Ralph.

ralph_angelus

chit-chat 2 shit-chat  

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i will be blunt. i offended some people with my comments abt vedanta, and i apologized. but if those people keep hounding me, i will also be offended. but i havent used any dissmisive comments like they did, all i did is quote them and used an appropriate smiley. and their response really was inappropriate. i have never made any personal comments abt anyone until now, but they kept making numerous underhand personal comments. so i replied in kind, and just one line. ok, maybe that was a bit too much. i apologize for that, but this time it was not i who started this craptalk.

back to the topic, have i ever said that m1 cannot be interpreted with a vedic bias? i have even posted the link to a site which is by far the best such interpretation on the web, and it was released long before m2 and m3.
if u read my posts, i have examined a lot of perspectives to the movie. if u feel otherwise, then ur simply wasting a lot of emotional energy.

andy thx for the backup

Fatpie42

  

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Kathy, Ralph can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he is saying that the main focus of the movies was christianity. adityadesh appeared to be more in favour of a hindu interpretation. It seemed to me that ralph was saying that hindu aspects were added mainly in order to increase the audience.

Though some have objected that the indian market isn't big enough, there are many religions in the east linked to hinduism. buddhism in particular is a very widespread religion with roots in hinduism. However, it might be said that it breaks so far away from these roots that the link is somewhat tenuous.

As far as the hindutva thing is concerned I will back Ralph on this one. If you knew about the kinds of atrocities linked to that belief system you would not rush to its side so quickly. However, this does not mean that ralph means to judge the individuals who do support this. But if I said I was linked to Al Quieda I think you would be making similar comments to me and probably far harsher.

ralph_angelus

global marketing  

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i'm not saying that the 'focus' is on christianity, people will certainly be offended again if i say that. i only said that the christian symbols are more abundant than any other in the movie, and like aditya said, the hindu elements become obvious in m3. i'm not saying anything abt the 'underlying philosophy', or whether it points to any religion.

i didnt imply that the hindu elements were added like a second thought or a patch or something like that, but that the movies were designed to attract audiences of many religious leanings, and that these different elements became progressively obvious, from m1 through m3. this may not be the only objective, but a global market is certainly one of the reasons for it.

i hope the bEagle and Kathy will forgive and forget. i made an unwarranted comment on the Vedanta, but i dont understand why these people take that as a personal insult.

Fatpie42

  

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Oh vedanta - misread that - silly me - I don't think I saw that discussion.

bEagle

  

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Fatpie, have you heard about KKK and Jerry Falwell in US? Fanatics don’t have monopoly in Islam or Christianity, they can be found everywhere. You cannot be too quick to judge the rest for them. Jews were persecuted everywhere, but the oldest Jewish temple stands intact in India. Zoroastrians took refuge in India and prospered there. This is way before the word “tolerance” became hip in the west. Lately Dalai Lama found sanctuary there. Would it be right to judge the entire US based on KKK and few fanatics like that? In US also things are not perfect, but the intention to allow everyone their place still prevails.

"i hope the bEagle and Kathy will forgive and forget. i made an unwarranted comment on the Vedanta, but i don’t understand why these people take that as a personal insult."
>> Ralph, You actually dissed your own country and the people who thought Vedanta. Many of us find Vedanta very inspiring. More than a personal insult, it was a collective insult and I felt somebody should defend it. But when you say ‘sorry’, I say ‘don’t worry’. I like St Augustine too. “The measure of love is no measure at all” to me means honoring and loving everyone and everything without any measurement, boundaries and conditions. This is not quite far from “all is divine” view of polymorphism. But hey, we can disagree.

Kathy, here is a way to look at the grand plot in the trilogy from the chant’s perspective.
Line 1: Asato ma sat gamay
Means: Take me to the truth from ignorance
Key Theme for Neo in M1: What is Truth?

Line 2: Tamaso ma Jyotir Gamay
Means: Take me from darkness to the source of light and love
Key Theme for Neo in M2: Reaching out to the source of light and love

Line 3: Mrutyo Ma Amrutam Gamay
Means: Take me from death to immortality
Key Theme for Neo in M3: Liberation, Immortality and end of time


Who is in Neo’s way all the time? Mr. Smith, the ego (I, me and mine)

And Kath, thanks for sticking out for me, but don’t get aggravated over this. Some terrorist blew up Buddha’s statue in Afghanistan doesn’t mean Buddha’s wisdom is lost. Killing Christ did not kill Christianity. Few unkind remarks about Vedanta will not reduce its profound message.

Fatpie42

  

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What IS vedanta? I've studied the bhagavad gita (well.... bits of it) for my course, but I don't generally know that much about indian beliefs.

As for me being against Indians - of course I'm not! I love India.
What I AM against however, is the massacre that took place at Ayodyha. Any belief system that justifies that kind of insane brutality is not worthy of any kind of respect. I am presuming that vedanta is not linked to that and is to do with this verse you quoted.

Is Ralph right in saying that sometimes that verse is used by Christians in India because it has similar ideas to them? I can't seem to find the post which said that, but I remember Ralph said something along those lines....

ralph_angelus

  

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Fatpie42 wrote:

Is Ralph right in saying that sometimes that verse is used by Christians in India because it has similar ideas to them? I can't seem to find the post which said that, but I remember Ralph said something along those lines....

yup. i have heard priests use this when describing christ and explaining what he means to us, etc. i have been taught this verse while studying catechism, a long time, ago in the 2nd or 3rd grade. so the first thing which comes to mind when i hear this verse is a saviour.

hindutva doesnt make hinduism bad. hindutva arises out of the idea that india is only for hindus and that people of other faiths are either the 'guests' of hindus, dependent on their mercy, or invaders. historically this is bull, but that doesnt stop them from beleiving it.

Quote:

when you say ‘sorry’, I say ‘don’t worry’

i cant tell u how glad i am. to tell u the truth, i have no ideas/attitude towards the vedanta. i just dislike the idea of religious ideas being used in science and vice versa, so i used that sentence. it was only hyperbole. i only realised what i had said after u replied harshly and i read my posts again.

Quote:

honoring and loving everyone and everything without any measurement, boundaries and conditions.

this means that people can be loved even if they have bad qualities. so y should everything be divine?

but there is one thing which can i claim esoteric knowledge to. there is no more true toleration in india. u have to live here and learn of the events happening here to understand that. mayb more on that later.

bEagle

  

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Everything is not perfect and it doesn’t harm to be critical if one is polite enough. I personally choose not to harp on it. The historical record [I mean really look into stats] of India’s tolerance I feel is undoubtedly great. It cannot be undone by few people and few events. I have spent quite some time there and even few other countries outside US. I have seen the most community bonding there. Just see local entertainment and you will see this integration repeated over (and over again). That just shows something about the psyche and value for unity.

Your Question: Can everything be divine? Can bad things be loved? This question is Vedanta's main persuit. In a way I felt, it is “the question” in M3. The machines are bad throughout. They are evil and menacing. What Neo chose is very important. He chose to end conflict with the beasts by making a deal with them. The deal is to destroy Mr. Smith, the ego, the division between me and you. How he was able to do that is very important. It so happened that he became blind, blind to the superficial form and attributes and then all he saw was the light, even within those machines. That light is the metaphor for seeing divine in everything. Whatever we put attention on grows. If you invest attention in outer form and division, the conflict grows and explodes on you. If you invest in unity, that also can grows and kind of explodes into peace. Shiva who is always portrayed with eyes closed (blind to the forms/attributes) has another name “Shambho”. I like what it means “Explosion of Peace” The very sound “Sh sss s s“is the sound of quiet peace and “Bho “is the sound of explosion. Shiva is the choice to invest in peace and Shambho is the outcome. Neo could make peace with machines only when he happened to close his eyes to their form and could only see is the light within them. The defeat of Mr. Smith, the ego follows.

In a much longer approach, a person can get into even more logical depths, even cross path with physics. These books I mentioned on Schrödinger thread have discussions on that. The trouble of this approach I find is the tool itself. The tool is intellect and method of intellect is duality. To put it to use for understanding non-duality could be a long trick.

So, the shortest approach I feel is experiential. To be with someone who sees just the light in everyone and loves unconditionally and someone who can make this your own experience just by virtue of being in that presence. In love there is unity between you and what you love. All divisions vanish there; the words of St Augustine can really become your own experience

ralph_angelus

agape?  

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is loving only divine things contrary to the concept of unconditional love? but i beleive only sentient beings should be loved. so 'divine' maybe just another word for 'sentient being'.

the danger in using scientific concepts is when we use concepts like wave/particle duality to interpret other kinds of duality, for eg. between matter and spirit etc. this seems to me great folly since there is no connection between the two. and how can u use a mathematical model for anything else?

of course,we all like to beleive that india has a 'history of toleration'. but the current interpretation among the intellectuals here is that this was more the consequence of repeated wars and invasions rather than some inherent quality of the people. for eg., when the mughals invaded, they took over the country. the hindus or others have no choice but to tolerate them. india has been invaded by people of quite a few religious faiths and almost all of them have been successful. but that is not my reason. the hindu-muslim animosity in the country is not a stray incident or occurence. it is festering and it is growing. organizations like the hindutva are steadily expanding their appeal, and the party in power shares their ideology. go to kevin's www link. that picture is what india looks like now, beneath 'our poised appearance'.

adityadash1984

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Hey Ralph as of now the situation is not that bad. You can check out the website of Aryan Nation and National Allinance that are white power oriented groups, however that doesnt depict a real picture of America. The only tragedy in India was the overwhelming victory of Narendra Modi in Gujrat inspite of the Gujrat riots. We must note that even Hitler was elected. More on politics later.

For everyone else: Ralph was just talking about including Hindu elements in the Matrix trilogy to appease certain audiences. I still disagree with that since I would assume that most people saw M3 after watching M2 and M1. I still havent met (or heard of) any Indian or an Asian for that matter who watched the movie after hearing about the Indian Family.

funmatrix2004

see more  

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get more details about the matrix movies in this fun site

matrixjourney.com...

Rockky

Hinduism----Buddhism---Religion---Matrix  

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Most of people(in the west) don't know much about Hinduism.
They know about Buddhism & there teaching.

they know following religion(blindly) but don't know why to follow...

I went thru lot of post on this site, i saw many guys with half knowledge pointing out other's mistakes, not giving credit to other religions & ways of thinking.


The movie trilogy of Matrix is a great boon to Indians or to be specific to Hindus, who are always taught the ideas & the teachings (in the movie), without giving there implementations, or showing there practicality in real life.

India is a land of theoretical knowledge, (the reason why they are major power in IT industry, to the present).

For the people who are pointing finger on the Indian/Hindu culture, should think .
Hinduism is a religion full of teachings & principles which are neutral in nature.
They are not point of views of an individual as in case of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Jainism.

Hinduism is a system, which gives freedom, & doesn't bound people. It tells you to follow yourself rather than following some system built by the society.
(The same Idea is underlying the creation of the Matrix-Trilogy)

Most of the guys on this forum & others where easy on Buddhism while they were skeptical about Hindu thinking behind the Movie.

Buddha was a Hindu, he never wanted to create a religion behind him, but instead he preached Hindu teachings, which in other countries were called as Buddhism after him.

Buddhism is a very small part of Hinduism.
(For more information, Hinduism is not the true name of the religion, it was Sanatan-Dharma)The meaning of Sanatan is eternal. Vedic Dharma can aptly be defined as Sanatan Dharma. In English, Dharma is defined by the word 'religion'.



If someone thinks that the last soundtrack in the movie was a tactical move by the producers to make Indian's happy & make more money.
Then I say the Trilogy was tactical move by the team behind the directors to awaken India -The country of knowledge.

India is a country of highest potential to take the world into a new direction.
Proofs. The topmost majority (knowledge-based & not marketing) people in US 'n UK are Indians.



Why only M3 has links to Hinduism?
Orthodox, Christian & Muslim countries/people don't allow a religion of high truth-content to be taught to common man or to follow other religions, or to come in touch with other religions.

Putting slokas in M1 wouldn't have appealed most of the Christian/rich countries.


Credit to Hinduism?
Believe it or not, forget about M3, the whole trilogy is based on Hindu principles & thinking.

some people say they are general thoughts or bhagvat gita is about general teachings.
Think again the Saffron color represent Hinduism.

Only a true follower of Hinduism can understand/can know that the underlying thinking behind the trilogy is that of a Hindus...

the other names from other cultures are brought in to make the Hinduism appealing to all the religions.


Hinduism is religion of the future....

Hinduism -Hindutva-politics-contraversies

as far as hindutva is concerned or Hindu hardliners....

Such people exist in all countries, everyone has right to follow and impose.
Point is many are publicized many are not.

Everyone knows about the demolished mosques,
But how many know about the (thousands of) Hindu temples that where demolished before and after the Ayodhya incident?

The Truth is inevitable...

Rockky

more hinduism  

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did anyone say matrix was a chirstian movie?
and not HIndu?

have a look
M1

world is illusion--hindu teachings

M2
temple gathering
the kind of prayer
taking off shoes b4 entering temple(the kid)

isn't that worth fighting for....dieing for...(Gita)
ther architect-----old man with white beard....(resembles popular image of Bhrahma- The creator)


M3
Indian familly, names, teaching, their line of thinking
the color of light (Neo sees)Saffron.
of course the last soundtrack.

what more can anyone ask for?

I bet no one can come up with some many points from any other religion.
showing neo as massiah, doesn't mean only jesus was the only massiah world has produced.

go thru Indian history you will see more than any number.

CHAITANYA

Interrupting  

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Please take a look at this topic
matrix-explained.com...

DODGE THIS bazoom!
Rockky

  

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Hindu concept?<------

if u believe, don't put question mark....

put "!" instead....!


Jai Bharat

ill

Constellations  

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Gawen wrote:

Beneath the land of Shambhala lies a cavernous underworld, peopled with gods below as the heavens above. Its summit aligns to the wheeling constellation of Ursa Major, the Seven Stars that circle the Pole which the ancients viewed as gods of wisdom. *g*


This may not be the best thread to bring this up in as no one has replied in months, and the topic varies a lot...but this quote was the closest I found to my greatest question about the Matrix films.

I may also post this in a new thread so that it might get looked at by other people.

On to my question/comment.

In reloaded, for a breif moment we are taken out of the reality of the film as Morpheus makes eye contact with the camera. On the original DVD the eye contact comes at 0:32:38. Morpheus has just watched Zion turn of the lights and the constellations burn brightly above him. He says "Goodnight Zion." Then looks into the camera for a moment before walking away.

I looked up this Ursla Major, but I can never find constellations in the night sky. Let alone on a T.V. screen. I was curious if anyone could make out what constellations, if there is even a constellation to be found there. More importantly, if a true constellation is there, what is it and what does it mean. Also. Why does Morpheus look at the camera. I realize it could be simply that he is looking close to the camera, and not at it but past it. I doubt this though. It would be scrapped as a bad take in any other film. I think this means something and I think it has something to do with the fact that we the veiwer are "in" Zion. The real world, the unplugged in world.

max314

Re: Matrix -Hinduconcept ?  

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Maya exists.

This is a fundamental truth. The fact that the world as it exists in our individual subjective consciousness leads to the logical conclusion that the world is uniquely projected by each individual says as much.

But this is all good and well. The question we now ask is "so, what do we do now?"

Neo asks this question starting from Reloaded (or at least he should be). He has transcended the 'maya' of the Matrix, but he has yet to transcend the 'maya' of his own mind. However, once he acheives even this (during R&R), he is confronted by Smith's nihilistic question:

"Why do you persist" when everything you know and believe in is "as artificial as the Matrix itself"?

This is the crux point of "so, what do we do now that we know that maya exists?"

His answer, in the true spirit of existentialism, is simply that he chooses to.

You see, whether or not this is real isn't the point. We are here. On this Earth, in this maya, living, breathing and interacting on this plane of existence. We could reject it, but then - like Smith - we'd be doomed to the Nietzschean void of oblivion.

And that just ain't good for anyone.

"What's 'real' doesn't matter. What matters is how we live our lives." ~ Duo

Remember when this statement seemed so evil? When Cypher seemed like the baddest of all the bad guys?

Reloaded and Revolutions gives you something of a perspective shift on this stuff, doesn't it?

If you want to know more about the man who tried to instill a set of principles and beliefs of how to live in this maya, I suggest to look up a man named Guru Nanak.

MAX

"If it can be written, or thought...it can be filmed." ~ Stanley Kubrick
psikeyhackr

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We do seem to be stuck in an endless Maya loop.

Maya culpa, Maya culpa, Maya MAXima culpa.


psikeyhackr

ps - That really bad pun/joke is in celebration of the upcoming

Star Wars Day.

May the Fourth be with you!

Ak47 Worst forum ever bazoom!

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