»Who built Zion?«

Ok, so I have MANY questions having seen Revolutions.

But this one nags at me most:-

Zion is a huge, sprawling, astonishing feat of engineering. So who built it?

Morpheus says in Reloaded that they have been fighting the machines for 100 years. Only 100 years? They couldn't have built Zion in that time.

Plus, how could the Architect say that they had destroyed Zion 5 times before?

Are we honestly expected to believe that this Zion has been destroyed 5 times?. Has the human race built the same incredible underground city from scratch each time - and presumably in a different location each time but always called 'Zion'? And built it with only 23 people to begin with? And never stumbled across the other Zions which were destroyed? Seems impossible.

It seems to me to be a ludicrous suggestion. Which is the most compelling argument that Zion is part of the Matrix or a seperate Matrix of its own.

What is clear is that the Wachowski's introduced these ideas in Reloaded and then completely ignored them in Revolutions.

Comments?

I think every time zion is destroyed only the people are dead and most of the city is destroyed but enough is left to where they can rebuild into a thriving city. When zion was fist put thier it was probaly either an old machine city or old not found by machines human city that was abondoned

I think that Zion was built by the machines to seem like some sort of underground bunker last resistence thing and then the humans come and fix it up. Each time people are freed they are guided to it. Everytime it is distroyed the machines dig it out and build it agian.

Here's an interesting way of seeing it: The human race was most likely totally enslaved after the first war. During the "perfect matrix" that was created solely by the architect, those that were released during the redesign became the first resistance. I would guess that Zion was an old machine mining colony, and the released humans, brain wiped to think it was their city, were probably transplanted there. Therefore, since the machines did not fear the human remnant, they allowed it to continue until the coming of the anomaly, when they used Zion as an bargaining chip to get the anomaly to return to the source. Once the anomaly was absorbed, Zion was destroyed and rebuilt so as to prepare for the next "Neo". Therefore, time becomes an illusion, and the machines remain dominant. Neo, the anomaly of all the previous anomalies, ended the war because his love was printed and distorted into Smith, creating a cancer that AI could not control. [/b]

darius_dax wrote:

Ok, so I have MANY questions having seen Revolutions. But this one nags at me most:- Zion is a huge, sprawling, astonishing feat of engineering. So who built it? Morpheus says in Reloaded that they have been fighting the machines for 100 years. Only 100 years? They couldn't have built Zion in that time.

Why not? Think of what the U.S. looked like in 1903.

darius_dax wrote:

Plus, how could the Architect say that they had destroyed Zion 5 times before? Are we honestly expected to believe that this Zion has been destroyed 5 times?. Has the human race built the same incredible underground city from scratch each time - and presumably in a different location each time but always called 'Zion'? And built it with only 23 people to begin with? And never stumbled across the other Zions which were destroyed? Seems impossible.

Zion could have easily been destroyed 5 times. If the machines did not destroy it, the human population spread would have gotten out of hand.
They haven't necessarily built Zion from scratch each time. YOU are presuming it is in a different place. But even if it was a separate place, they could have built the place in 100 years without a problem. I don't know how old you are, but that is a long time.
As for calling it Zion - remember the One chooses the 23 people from the Matrix. Whether he lives to go rebuild with them or not, it is not ludicrous to assume that he has some communication with them, telling them about the old Zion, and that they need to rebuild it.
I.E. Morpheus tells Neo in the first Matrix movie that "there was a man born inside who could remake the Matrix as he saw fit." and that it "it was he that freed the first of us." This is obviously the previous incarnation of the One, and so obviously the descendants (or those that are freed thereafter) of the 23 know about him.
Thus, after a Zion is destroyed, the code is inserted, and the Matrix "reloaded," either the One reinserts his code he is carrying and then escapes with the 23 others (making 8 male, 16 female total - cue the Beach Boys "two girls for every boy" line here) and the 24 people begin rebuilding Zion, OR the One reinserts his code and then dies, but not before choosing the 23 people and telling them the vital information about the real world that they need to know. Otherwise how would they know about the matrix and the whole situation?

darius_dax wrote:

It seems to me to be a ludicrous suggestion. Which is the most compelling argument that Zion is part of the Matrix or a seperate Matrix of its own. What is clear is that the Wachowski's introduced these ideas in Reloaded and then completely ignored them in Revolutions. Comments?

Um... the only detail you got wrong here is that YOU (plural) introduced the idea of the MwM, not the Wachowskis. They, of course introduced the ideas that made you think about MwM, but they never EVER talked about a possibility of such a thing in any direct form. Therefore they do not have to resolve any issues about it, because in their minds there never were any.
There are many explanations for Neo's ability to stop the sentinels, including the fact that yes, the brain CAN act as a transmitter, although it is weak. (I'm not a neurologist, but I have been studying the brain for the last 6 weeks here at medical school, so I do know at least that).
The problem with the MwM theory I've always found, is that, although it provides a feasible explanation for that one part of Reloaded, it destroys much of the whole purpose of both the humans' and machines' quests and the entire purposes of all three movies, not the least of which is the humans freeing people from the Matrix, and the machines quest to destroy Zion in the 2nd and 3rd movies. Neither of these things have any merit or reason if the MwM idea holds.

And remember all, the world of the Matrix is ONLY in these two guys' minds. It's not like it's just these guys version of something that really happened. Therefore, if they didn't think it, it DOES NOT exist.

Malenien wrote:

Think of what the U.S. looked like in 1903.

I can exactly think of what the US looked like in 1903 and I don't actually think that it is THAT much different from today! What has happened is that hundreds of years of engineering has gradually changed the face of the cities and, yes, the buildings are bigger but fundamentally the cities are very similar.

In fact, I think TODAY'S engineers would be hard pressed to build Zion, certainly from scratch. [And not without about $70 billion ]

Malenien wrote:

They haven't necessarily built Zion from scratch each time. YOU are presuming it is in a different place. But even if it was a separate place, they could have built the place in 100 years without a problem. I don't know how old you are, but that is a long time.

Two things:- 100 years is not a long time at all. Not for evolution and certainly not for engineering. And doubly so for engineering at the level which we see in Zion. Especially for a species that starts with 23 people! Secondly, OK let's say that Zion is in the same place and the humans just rebuild it. And I know that in Revolutions it is, I suppose, the last time. But the machines have become very good at destroying it and if this time was anything like the last then there is a huge burrowed hole which leads from the surface straight down to the city!

Malenien wrote:

Otherwise how would they know about the matrix and the whole situation?.

That is a very interesting point.

Malenien wrote:

Um... the only detail you got wrong here is that YOU (plural) introduced the idea of the MwM, not the Wachowskis. They, of course introduced the ideas that made you think about MwM, but they never EVER talked about a possibility of such a thing in any direct form. Therefore they do not have to resolve any issues about it, because in their minds there never were any.

I dispute this. They set up a series of arguments for which one possible solution was that Zion was part of the Matrix. If they had talked about it in direct form then there would be no argument! But they alluded to the possibility, then they never mentioned it again. You cannot deny that, barring Neo's brief chat with the Oracle, NONE of the ideas introduced by the Architect are mentioned AT ALL!

Malenien wrote:

There are many explanations for Neo's ability to stop the sentinels, including the fact that yes, the brain CAN act as a transmitter, although it is weak. (I'm not a neurologist, but I have been studying the brain for the last 6 weeks here at medical school, so I do know at least that) .

I don't think that there are many explanations. There is only the 'truth' by which the Wachowski's reasoned it was possible, but sadly they don't want to properly explain it to us. Any discussion is just fan theory as to what this 'truth' might be, no more or less valid than the MwM theory - in that it is never satisfactorily explained. In fact, I am happier with the Oracle's lame comment that the One's powers extend beyond the Matrix to explain this. Because then you have a kind of 'force' like power as explanation. Ok, if that's what the Wachowski's want to introduce then fine. The issue I have with this is that they have previously set up the world of the Matrix as OUR world but in the future. This is not some galaxy far, far away but rather OUR future and I find this somewhat contrived. But these are their rules, so that's fine. It's the inconsistencies in the other issues that I find annoying.

Malenien wrote:

The problem with the MwM theory I've always found, is that, although it provides a feasible explanation for that one part of Reloaded, it destroys much of the whole purpose of both the humans' and machines' quests and the entire purposes of all three movies, not the least of which is the humans freeing people from the Matrix, and the machines quest to destroy Zion in the 2nd and 3rd movies. Neither of these things have any merit or reason if the MwM idea holds.

I agree wholeheartedly with that. Which was one of the things that almost spoilt my enjoyment of the incredible battle as I sat wondering whether Zion was going to be revealed as part of the Matrix.

Malenien wrote:

And remember all, the world of the Matrix is ONLY in these two guys' minds. It's not like it's just these guys version of something that really happened. Therefore, if they didn't think it, it DOES NOT exist.

But they may have thought it but not explicitly detailed it. Did anyone come out of Reloaded and not have questions? There was so much with the Architect that was fundamentally not explained. And yet NONE of it was mentioned in Revolutions.

However, there is enough pseudo psychology and religious metaphor to discuss for months and as long as the brothers don't provide concrete evidence then pretty much any explanation is open to interpretation.

Maybe any conclusion would be a let down. Maybe the brothers couldn't come up with a resolution that would answer all the questions and still be worth watching. Maybe they just wanted to leave everything open to interpretation.

Maybe that's what they planned all along

This is a totally redundant thread as it uses arguments already compiled at my site.

I can only repeat myself:
1) 100 years ago the humans who were freed to start a Zion have been children from the matrix year 1899.

2) If the machines need 100 years to dig down, then no way 23 people could have built this city

3) If they are running around in clothes like in Zion and use old spaceships then no way they were able to build underground cities

4) Even nowadays it's impossible to make underground cities

5) The Architect could use the word "Zion" as "human resistance camp"

I leave this thread here because this hasn't been discussed in depth before.

I realise that this thread uses ideas covered on the site, but I still feel these ideas warrant discussion. Especially in light of Revolutions.

So thanks for keeping it open

This is a totally redundant thread as it uses arguments already compiled at my site.

I can only repeat myself:
1) 100 years ago the humans who were freed to start a Zion have been children from the matrix year 1899.

2) If the machines need 100 years to dig down, then no way 23 people could have built this city

3) If they are running around in clothes like in Zion and use old spaceships then no way they were able to build underground cities

4) Even nowadays it's impossible to make underground cities

5) The Architect could use the word "Zion" as "human resistance camp"

I leave this thread here because this hasn't been discussed in depth before.
first of all ill start at number one, the year of present time is not 1999 brain stein as morpheus said in the first one its closer to 2199 so its quit simple for them to build such a poor city in short time with the technology they have, i mean they covered the sky thats pretty advanced, next the machines dont need 100 years, they need like a few days to get to zion, they need zion up to a point, it needs to hold the 1% of the people who dont exept the programing such as the one, and ur correct 23 people didnt build the city, the one built the city and placed those people in it and then died after reinserting his code, this happened 5 times in the past and i believe that since the machines need zion untill the one fufils wat he is meant to do they helped the one pic a spot and build the city, they cant build it in the same spot for a number of reasons, they need to get closer to the core to have heat and they cant rebuild over the rubble. next it is true they have bad clothes but u cant jugde on that, they have no materials to have clothes ur forgetting, u think animals can survive without they sun on the surface of the earth and with machines roming everywere, no they cant so humans have to make use of the junk they have, and there ships ironically use the technology that the machines invented in the animatrix second renasainse part one, next ya nowadays it is imposible to make underground cities but wat does taht have to do with a city that existz 200 years in the future? next basically this is the only one u have right, exept the name zion has the two numbers 01 just like the first machine city, in first and second ren, in the animatrix the city 01 was the first and only machine city, and also the tables were turned back then, man ruled machine and stuff basically this is supposed to symbolize that from the start of AI to now the machines have completely swaped places from were the humans were and were they were, now they are the powerful ones, they hold the keys, they have the answers, and they rules , its a simple as that.

The humans built Zion before they lost the war. The machines do not totally destroy Zion because it serves their purpose. I would guess that they even
rebuild Zion for the next cycle. But then one would have to ask: Why do they use humans as energy source and not the Earth core?

White_Pawn wrote:

first of all ill start at number one, the year of present time is not 1999

What are you talking about. The year in the matrix is 1999. The resistence is 100 years old, so it started 1899 matrix time and most of the freed had been children from 1899.

White_Pawn wrote:

make underground cities but wat does taht have to do with a city that existz 200 years in the future?

That's what I am saying. The Zionites didn't build the city. Their pre-war predecessors did it. The same applies for the ships and weapons.

With respect, I have to point out that in Matrix 1, Morpheus tells Neo that the year is 2199. There is then a degree of dichotomy involved: the year inside the actual Matrix (as it is perceived) is 1999, but the actual year of real-world time is 2199. In fact, if you watch the Animatrix, you can see that the humans there use quite advanced technology and the general setting just before the Dark Sky strikes me as being fare more advanced and futuristic that the 1999 world.

i´ll make my post very simple :

zion, 100 years old
destroyed 5 times.
20 years for each rebuild

people in the matrix living in the 1990s

zion -> futurous, subterran -> city of the future, 2100

machines prisoned every human beeing

23 humans became free

they came from 1990s

they build a high tech subterran city ?
cant be !

they found old documents or somewhat like this ?
learned everything about the 2100 technology,
and then build a high end city in 20 years, populated with thousands of humans ?
23 people --> 20 years --> ten thousands of humans ?
hm...

16 femals-> 16 babys average maximum per year

1. year 23 + 16 babys = 39
2. year 23 + 16 babys + 16 1 year old = 55
3. year 23 + 16 babys + 16 1 year old + 16 2 year old = 71
s
ee .. until the children born are 14-16 years, the population will only grow by about 16 per year

14. year : 247
since now, every year the last generation will become old enough to become a baby --> population will explode !

i am to lazy to figure out the formular

but i dont think that the population will explode to 250.000 in 6 years !
that would be 1000% growing ! impossible !






or am i false ?


[/b]

23 people---> not enhough genetic diversity to create a big population /gene pool to small

outcome: retarded and malfunctioning children with failing organs


a big flaw if u ask me...

also thought of this, the children after 14 years would all be incest children

you can see this in some hardcore religious villes in the usa. they are about 50 people, all close related to each others. most children after several years of incest are handicapped

The One is to pick 23 people. Plus himself makes 24.

24 people, 16 female, 8 male has been theorized to be the minimum viable gene pool, with careful breeding.

We don't have enough information to know where Zion came from. It might've been built by the machines, it might've been built on the ruins of the previous Zion(s). It might be a matrix.

i don't think that creating Zion in 100 years starting from 23 people is possible.

However, as a trivial. In Cappadocia, Turkey, there is an underground city which has been built about thousand years ago. I was there about a month ago..

Anyway, it has 8 floors, each have kitchen, living room, bedroom etc. But we were told that, this underground city was used only in summer times, in order to hiding from barbarian attackers. (in summer they could attack just fine, but in winter they needed more food etc. thus they only attached in summer). There are narrow corridors, also they are not tall enough (to slow down attackers if they get into the city).

Our guide told us that, the stone and rock structure of that area is very suitable for digging. He said, 2 persons can dig a room to live in just 10 days, using only small hammers.

But Zion is real big, especially the dock. Even given the very suitable rock structure for digging, I think only the dock require tens of people and years to built.

People...people!

You are forgetting the fact that these pre-selected individuals are the ones which starts the releasing of other people still captured in the Matrix. Not all 250,000 of Zion's population are born from real parents, I believe that a high percentage of them are from the Matrix itself. Give or take a ratio of 70-30, 70 being people freed from the Matrix.

Think...think...think

Soviet wrote:

With respect, I have to point out that in Matrix 1, Morpheus tells Neo that the year is 2199. There is then a degree of dichotomy involved: the year inside the actual Matrix (as it is perceived) is 1999, but the actual year of real-world time is 2199.

Uff we are talking circles here.
People freed from the Matrix are freed from their intellectual state of 1999 into the real world year of 2199 (or so).
Thus 100 years ago children from 1899 have been freed into 2099. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

NOBODY from 1899 could build an underground city.

John Mirra wrote:

23 people---> not enhough genetic diversity to create a big population /gene pool to small outcome: retarded and malfunctioning children with failing organs a big flaw if u ask me...

Hey, good point. Never heard of that. But maybe that's why they are all so young (see temple gathering). The older died.

But the gene pool grows as "raw meat is freed"

I can't recall but was it actually 2199? This was said during Morpheus explanation to Neo about the Matrix right? I seem to have heard 3199. Somebody clarify if 2199 is correct and perhaps pull-out a quote.

The dialogue is:

Morpheus: More important than what, is when.
Neo: When?
Morpheus: You believe it's the year 1999 when in fact it's closer to 2199. I can't tell you exactly what year it is because we honestly don't know.

I think this is irrelevant..

Quote:

Uff we are talking circles here. People freed from the Matrix are freed from their intellectual state of 1999 into the real world year of 2199 (or so). Thus 100 years ago children from 1899 have been freed into 2099. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. NOBODY from 1899 could build an underground city.

What is the problem there? You missed the entire concept of how Neo learned Kung Fu within an hour so. People from 1899 can learn 2199 technology within a fraction of a second just by jacking in and loading the juice. Hope that is clear.

Morpheus said it himself. We don't know.

Morpheus: "You believe it's the year 1999 when in fact it's closer to 2199. I can't tell you exactly what year it is because we honestly don't know. "

Remember the Matrix has been rebuilt at least 5 times. The last Matrix that we know from the movie is based on the year "1999" . The year that human was at the peak of their civilization. So what that means is this last version of the Matrix is depicts the year 1999. Nothing more , nothing less.

But in the real world (Zion's world) it could be the year 2199 or 3199 or 5199. The answer is we don't know what the real year is! All we know is from record keeping is that Zion has been at war for 100 years, but certain records could have been lost over the years... So no one really knows what year it is.

"You believe it's the year 1999 when in fact it's closer to 2199."

Morpheus was talking about what year it was supposed to be IN the Matrix since they've been having 100 year war already. The machines somewhat keeps the Matrix within this timeframe 'the peak of human civilization'. Give or take perhaps a decade or two before they reset the whole thing.