»The Wachowski brothers lost focus«

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[Agent Smith should not have been the focus of the last two movies -- unravelling the secrets of the matrix, and freeing mankind should have. This isn't rocket science. They lost focus, and as such, they blew the whole thing for everybody. Those that are spewing out the BS that "if you don't like it, you just don't get it" remind me of the same people who went on and on with their "America: Love it or Leave it" crap. Just because you are ignorantly loyal to a leader or a movie does not make you correct.]

Where is this from?

hahaah lol....

well there you have it....

i believe both of those... love it or leave it...

and you probably didnt get it man....

elprez wrote:

hahaah lol.... well there you have it.... i believe both of those... love it or leave it... and you probably didnt get it man....

I don't usually go watch movies to have to "get it" - I watch them for entertainment value which Revoultions did not provide for me "man". There was not much to "get" from Revoultions considering the movie was a bland straight-forward action movie.

What made the first movie entertaining? It was the innovative "anime" camera angles, slow motion, bullet-time, interesting plot and The Matrix itself. Human Beings are slaves to machines in a "dream-world" and the real world is a future waste-land. A prophecy tells that Neo will be the one to end the war and free the humans.

I found Revoultions a poor film because it didn't feel like a "Matrix" movie. It felt like a run-of-the-mill sci-fi action film. Gone are the vast use of innovative camera angles - and the Matrix itself. Majority of the movie takes place in Zion with characters I have no interest in. The original movie had a clear purpose - the machines are evil, must be stopped and the humans freed... the second movie added some amazing twists/riddles for the 3rd to asnwer but focus was lost - the climax is eventually between Neo and Agent Smith. The machines are still in control and they need their power source. The humans are still plugged into the Matrix. Both Neo and Trinity (awesome characters) are dead.

I thought Neo was "The One" to free his people? In the end it appeared that he was "The One" to destroy the virus Smith. It feels that the "ending" was "forced" so that it could leave a door open for future sequels.

mark my words and mark them well..

i have 50 men (,women and children) ready to beat your ass for not liking revolutions. and no, the 8 your thinking of has NOTHING to do with this new attack. They unfortunately died in a bumper car accident at the north pole. ANYWAYS, i hope the pain we are going to inflict on you will make you realize that Revolutions is a pretty good movie once you watch it a few times, talk about it on forums for a few days, dream about it, smash your nuts a few times with a hammer trying to unplug yourself, etc....

BTW i am gay!

I completely have to disagree with you on the revolutions, it sucks. It has no point, no plot, no anything. I agree with Deus Ex, Smith should have died in the first movie period. There were bigger better bad guys that the matrix threw at Neo and could have done just fine without Smith. They lost all focus on what the story was all about, dropping all the twists and turns and everything that made the Matrix good and left it to big machines with humans inside, fighting big machines trying to kill them for 3 hours. I found Little Women had more excitement (by the way I find it long drawn out and rather dull) than revolutions. Everyone is free to their opinions, so deal with the fact that a lot of people were very disappointed in revolutions and it has nothing to do with our understanding of it.

i am not saying the third flim was horrible, i disagree though it was not the best in the set but ir was not bad though, ihtink every one is mad at the ending because it leaves us confused and the fact that we dont know what will happen to them or what has happend to everyone i llike the ending it left us confused an made us think(it did need more fighting though)

Deus Ex wrote:

elprez wrote: hahaah lol.... well there you have it.... i believe both of those... love it or leave it... and you probably didnt get it man.... I don't usually go watch movies to have to "get it" - I watch them for entertainment value which Revoultions did not provide for me "man". There was not much to "get" from Revoultions considering the movie was a bland straight-forward action movie. What made the first movie entertaining? It was the innovative "anime" camera angles, slow motion, bullet-time, interesting plot and The Matrix itself. Human Beings are slaves to machines in a "dream-world" and the real world is a future waste-land. A prophecy tells that Neo will be the one to end the war and free the humans. I found Revoultions a poor film because it didn't feel like a "Matrix" movie. It felt like a run-of-the-mill sci-fi action film. Gone are the vast use of innovative camera angles - and the Matrix itself. Majority of the movie takes place in Zion with characters I have no interest in. The original movie had a clear purpose - the machines are evil, must be stopped and the humans freed... the second movie added some amazing twists/riddles for the 3rd to asnwer but focus was lost - the climax is eventually between Neo and Agent Smith. The machines are still in control and they need their power source. The humans are still plugged into the Matrix. Both Neo and Trinity (awesome characters) are dead. I thought Neo was "The One" to free his people? In the end it appeared that he was "The One" to destroy the virus Smith. It feels that the "ending" was "forced" so that it could leave a door open for future sequels.

NO! NOT AN OPEN ENDED ending. I need closure, waaaaah. Seriously, time doesn't just stop. It didn't end when Amercia wo nthe Revolutionary War. But wait, that was the happy Hollywood ending part, why is it still going? It just does, dang.

awesomeboy39 wrote:

i am not saying the third flim was horrible, i disagree though it was not the best in the set but ir was not bad though, ihtink every one is mad at the ending because it leaves us confused and the fact that we dont know what will happen to them or what has happend to everyone i llike the ending it left us confused an made us think(it did need more fighting though)

I agree with everything you posted awesomeboy39 especially the more fighting thing. I thought the Super Burly Brawl could have been way better than the Burly Brawl had it been longer. Instead the SBB doesn't even measure up to the subway fight between Smith and Neo in M1. I still liked M3 but there are things to pick at. Like the lack of action the invasion of Zion is alright but I wanted more action within the Matrix.

Deus Ex wrote:

Quote: [Agent Smith should not have been the focus of the last two movies -- unravelling the secrets of the matrix, and freeing mankind should have. This isn't rocket science. They lost focus, and as such, they blew the whole thing for everybody. Those that are spewing out the BS that "if you don't like it, you just don't get it" remind me of the same people who went on and on with their "America: Love it or Leave it" crap. Just because you are ignorantly loyal to a leader or a movie does not make you correct.]

I completely agree. putting emphasis on Smith only made the last two movies less intresting. and more complicated

[quote="Deus Ex] The original movie had a clear purpose - the machines are evil, must be stopped and the humans freed... the second movie added some amazing twists/riddles for the 3rd to asnwer but focus was lost - the climax is eventually between Neo and Agent Smith. The machines are still in control and they need their power source. The humans are still plugged into the Matrix. Both Neo and Trinity (awesome characters) are dead. [/quote]

Your problem is that you didn't get what was really going on. The first movie makes you think that things are as simple as what you said: "machines are evil, humans are good". But then as the plot unfolds, you can see that things are not as simple as that. I recommend that you watch all 3 movies more closely and perhaps you will get them and enjoy them more.

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the machines are evil

This is the basic misunderstanding....machines are not evil...nor the humans...humans ill treated them and they returned the favor.

Movie is related closely with bible...neo was not meant to free humans completely..rather bring hope to mankind and give a choice to humans to stay in or come out of the matrix.

3rd part is not a typical classic happy ending that we all are used to see in movies..maybe thats why u didnt like it.

I feel thats a perfect and logical ending...and I like the movie.

Revolutions wasn't the best in the trilogy, and I rather disliked the plot holes it left, but it was still a satisfactory ending to the trilogy. No film is perfect, after all.

people i dont think got revalutions...it was a good film with alot of heart. Its about life...survival and how someone sacrificing themselves for the greater good. Neo went through alot....and the end cause was great. he could of stayed with trinity but he kept going. cause he knew it wasnt about him anymore. but about zion. dig into the movie and look. its all there as clear as day.

Not only about zion

Also about the ignorant souls inside te Matrix who must be given patience in their decisions if they want to enlight themselves or not: live and let live.

And he also did it for the programs; among some of them real love has become a more important feature.

yes very much true...its a deep movie..but people only skim the surface

It might be, that the third movie is about... whatever. But it is part of the triology and therefore should fit. But it just does not. The purpose of the last part of a triology is to explain the things that are going on, to solve the twists, to give answers 'why' things are happening, what is the cause for all effects that the audience is seeing, to explain what are the motivations of the main characters, to get through with the things that were started and so on...

But Revolutions just does not fullfill the puropse of the last part. It offers stunning visual effects, some blabla and nothing else. It switches from a science fiction movie to a fantasy movie, where everything is 'explained' with some magic and mysteries.

Yes, the brothers lost focus. The tracks, that were set in the first two movies were not pursued and not explained. The open end it self is fine for me. The first movie also had an open end and it works fine for me. But the brothers just made the story bigger and bigger until they cut not handle it any more. So it collapsed.

starcrow wrote:

It might be, that the third movie is about... whatever. But it is part of the triology and therefore should fit. But it just does not.

It indeed does seem that for the majority of the public, it didn't fit. Now, it is always interesting to think about the why : why didn't it fit with the majority of the public ? The reasons you give is that :

I) "The purpose of the last part of a triology is to explain the things that are going on, to solve the twists, to give answers 'why' things are happening, what is the cause for all effects that the audience is seeing, to explain what are the motivations of the main characters, to get through with the things that were started and so on..."

And moreso that

II) "Revolutions just does not fullfill the puropse of the last part. It offers stunning visual effects, some blabla and nothing else."

The first part (I) is about the expectations of the public, and while I mostly agree with what you presented, there is still a great difference in the degree those things 'have' to be explained.

The second part (II) is the real question : 'Did it meet the expectations?' ... For you, they obviously did not, but I would like to hear your (more specific) reasoning about how it didn't meet your expectations ... (see also final question at the end of the post)

Because to me, Revolutions did explain the important things that are going on (the society presented in the films : the existing war, how it evolves (the ending of that war), and how things stand after the deal between Neo and the AI).

I agree that certain subplots are remained open (escpecially some background subplots, like the history between Seraph and the Merovingian, and with Smith for that matter; what about the Merovingian's role in this new 'deal', and others, but they are what they are: subplots), but most of them are answered ... (again, which aren't?)

I can't think of any twist that aren't explained, or which motivations of characters aren't explained.

One thing I don't understand is why the cause of the effects need the be explained, are you talking about the special effects? To me they are there to show what is seen on screen, to tell the story.

And about "the answers to 'why' things are happening", apart from the subplots mentioned above, which 'why'-s aren't answered (while not being spoon-fed) ?

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It switches from a science fiction movie to a fantasy movie, where everything is 'explained' with some magic and mysteries.

I get from this that the presented explanations are -for your taste- too magic and mysterious (like the 'he touched the source, but wasn't ready for it'-explanation for Neo to go into a coma - end end up in the trainstation) ? So the problem is not that there are no answers given, but that the answers that are given, are not sufficient ?

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Yes, the brothers lost focus. The tracks, that were set in the first two movies were not pursued and not explained.

Again, I just want to know 'what tracks' ? Because I din't find any specific unexplained plots or tracks in your post, which makes it difficult to understand your reasoning ...

Clockwork wrote:

It indeed does seem that for the majority of the public, it didn't fit.

Ye, but they never give a better ending, they all want 'and they lived happily ever after'

But it seems that starcrow doesn't want another ending, but more or better resolution during Revolutions - how and where, we don't know (yet) ..

I hope we know soon because theres only so much theories people can go through

starcrow wrote:

But Revolutions just does not fullfill the puropse of the last part. It offers stunning visual effects, some blabla and nothing else. It switches from a science fiction movie to a fantasy movie, where everything is 'explained' with some magic and mysteries.

Sorry I don't agree.

If you dive deeply into technical computer science and philosophy it all makes sense. No fantasy there.

Clockwork is right. I do not want another ending. This open end just fits perfectly. The brothers did it absolutely right. It is the true representation of hope, of a fresh start for mankind. And I agree with Neo's death. He saved mankind. He is on the peak. What else could he reach? He had to die, as he fullfilled his purpose in the story. And Trin... yea... in Part II and III, her only purpose was to have this silly love story (sorry, it really didn't work out on the screen, IMHO mainly because of bad acting and bad script writing). As Neo is dead, it's time to get rid of her as well.

But now to your qestions. What things in Part III did not work out?I think you should know them. But I will review the three most prominent examples again.

- Merv&Pers.
Merv, a new villain. Wow! He gives a big speech, there are trucks full of hints. Merv seems to be involved somehow. He has to play a certain role. And then... nothing. In Part III he just turns out to be some ordinary bad guy... disappointing.

Same with Pers. What does she want? What about the kissing? Her speech about love and everthing. There just has to be something in store for Part III. And then... nothing. Pers. turns out to be one of the most unimportant characters of the entire triology. Her appearance and her scenes in Part II were even not necessary. Why spend so much time on her and Merv in Part II? Part II makes you believe there is still soemthing in store. But... nothing.

- Sati
Ok, she just has to be important, right? Why would the Oracle care so much for her otherwise? But... all she does is creating a sunrise for Neo... wow, how important. Impressive! Why spend time on her in Part III if she contributes nothing to the story? I think it is just as with Merv&Pers. They are all tracks and hints... but no explanation.

- Neo's sentinal-stopping-stunt at the end of Part II
Cool! The best cliffhanger one could come up with. In Part I, the Matrix, the Oracle and the story about The One was explained from the rebels point of view. Part II gave us a completely different view about just everything! And then, after the end of part II... there just had to be some twist again! After a stunt like that, part II just could not be the entire truth about the Matrix. But as we know... nothing. Just a lame explanation about the Source, being The One and some fantasy blabla.. feels a bit like StarWars and its thing about the Force. But, whereas in StarWars, these mystery things fit, in Matrix they just don't. Expectations were that there has to be some major twist again. And the brothers knew that, as i think this was the prupose of this stunt. For me, it seems that in Part III the cliffhanger just had fullfilled its purpose as... well a cliffhanger. So get rid of it with one sentence ("The power of The One extends beyond this world.") and continue with some special effects. End of story.

But let's have a look at the main storyline: Neo has to save mankind. And he does. There is peace at the end of Part III, Zion has not been destroyed and there is a new hope arising. Works find. The main story encompasses all three parts. But why, oh why not just focus on the main story line? Why was the story so much clouded by so many negligibilities that do not contribute to the real story? Why create so may layers, set so many tracks and hints... and do not connect them to the main story line? They are just loose ends, not tied together. And that's why Part III was such a disappointment.

starcrow wrote:

Merv - trucks full of hints - seems to be involved - certain role.

role : middleman with Keymaker and with Sati, introduce 'Eyes of the Oracle'-concept, causality-speech

unresolved hint : relation with Seraph, ..., ..others?

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Persephone - speech about love; one of the most unimportant characters

Love theme, while maybe not adequate put forward in the Neo-Trinity relationship, is very important throughout the trilogy. And there are much more less important characters, but yes, she isn't a 'big' character ...

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Why spend so much time on her and Merv in Part II? Part II makes you believe there is still soemthing in store. But... nothing.

I blame expectations (MB's clevage..)

They were merely a subplot in Reloaded and if they would appear in Revolutions, they would only serve as subplots (which the Merovingian does, and Persephone also, although indirectly)
And while interesting, there was no need for extra explanations (maybe on the Seraph relation, but that wouldn't advance the story one bit, ... it would be cool though)

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Sati - has to be important; contributes nothing to the story; all tracks and hints... but no explanation.

She presents the first (& only) program created without purpose, & created out of love instead out of purpose. That's quite a revolutionary change. Other than that, she serves, for Neo and for the audience, as an indicator of the fact that machines are not pure evil (and that the end of the war doesn't need 1 -and only 1- victor)

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Neo's sentinal-stopping-stunt - there just had to be some twist again! ... nothing. - Expectations were that there has to be some major twist again.

Hmm, the ending was a rather large twist for lots of viewers ... and for most people that disliked Revolutions, that (the ending) equals to a disappointion (not for you though)

And again those stupid expactations, they just ruin your filmexperience (I rule out the obvious/general expectations you want from any movie)

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lame explanation - fantasy blabla.. So get rid of it with one sentence ("The power of The One extends beyond this world.") and continue with some special effects.

It's science-fiction, the explanation (power extends ..) is far from 'fantasy' ... at least from my pov, so let me explain :

I) All redpills are not just humans, their minds are extremely altered. Which makes them like cyborgs, although a very human version.
II) The sentinels are wireless connected to the machine mainframe, also known as the force (they at least have a connection with the agents, since they can be deployed by them).

=> given the story from the first movie, the wireless connection that Neo makes is not that far-fetched for a SF-movie ...

If you consider that as lame, than -imo- the whole idea of a matrix is as lame ...

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But why, oh why not just focus on the main story line? Why was the story so much clouded by so many negligibilities that do not contribute to the real story? Why create so may layers, set so many tracks and hints... and do not connect them to the main story line?

Main story : Neo has to save mankind. But also the Journey of Neo ... which is necessary for to save mankind (at least the way that it happened in the trilogy).

For Neo to realise peace was the only solution to save mankind (or end the war), he needs to realise the machines are 'beings' too (Reloaded : Oracle = program / Revolutions : programs don't 'need' to have a purpose : Sati !)

For the deal to work, there has to be a threat, for both parties : Sentinels for Zion/Real World, Smith for Matrix & Machine world.

And just as the Keymaker being kept by Merovingian = tool to tell the story or make it interesting, so is Neo being trapped in Mobil Ave.

About some subplots not being directly connected to the main story, what is so wrong with that ? The ones I can think of :

Kid's story
Seraphs backstory

All other subplots are directly or indirectly related to the main story from my pov ...

Clockwork wrote:

starcrow wrote: Merv - trucks full of hints - seems to be involved - certain role. role : middleman with Keymaker and with Sati, introduce 'Eyes of the Oracle'-concept, causality-speech

We agree on the middleman. That role is connected to the main plot. But the thing with the 'Eyes of the oracle' and his causality speech had no relation to the main plot. So why did he make his speech? It's a lot of blabla, it even sounds good... but has no meaning for the main plot.

Clockwork wrote:

starcrow wrote: Persephone - speech about love; one of the most unimportant characters Love theme [...] is very important throughout the trilogy.

Yes, love plays some role. But not Pers. Her scenes have no meaning. They only add fog and blur.

Clockwork wrote:

They were merely a subplot in Reloaded[...] And while interesting, there was no need for extra explanations

I would rather say there was no need for all these tracks and hints. They are only there do make the movie look deeper, with hidden meanings and everything... they are just deceiving.

Clockwork wrote:

starcrow wrote: Sati She presents the first (& only) program created without purpose, & created out of love instead out of purpose. That's quite a revolutionary change. Other than that, she serves, for Neo and for the audience, as an indicator of the fact that machines are not pure evil (and that the end of the war doesn't need 1 -and only 1- victor)

I agree to that... but what has the Oracle to do with that? And why does Seraph takes so much care of her? But there might be some overinterpretation here.

Clockwork wrote:

And again those stupid expactations, they just ruin your filmexperience

Not the expectations, but the tracks and hints that cause these expectations are to blame. The expectations are just the effect of that cause... so to speak. And those tracks and hints where set and placed by the filmmakers. So, who is to blame?

Clockwork wrote:

starcrow wrote: lame explanation - fantasy blabla.. So get rid of it with one sentence ("The power of The One extends beyond this world.") and continue with some special effects. I) All redpills are not just humans, their minds are extremely altered. Which makes them like cyborgs, although a very human version. II) The sentinels are wireless connected to the machine mainframe, also known as the force (they at least have a connection with the agents, since they can be deployed by them). => given the story from the first movie, the wireless connection that Neo makes is not that far-fetched for a SF-movie

Indeed! Wireless connections make completely sense! What is lame is the explanation for the wireless connection. So be able to establish such a connection, one need a device. While in the Matrix movies, humans have a lot of non-human parts implated into their bodies, there is no need to implant a device for wireless connections. The connections in the power plant are made via cable and humans are not expected to go elsewhere. The rebels also do not connect wirelessly. Even for The One, there is no need for such a connection, as he is expected to return to the 'Source' and not to perform some stunts in the real world. Even _if_ Neo had some special devices, as he was selected to be The One, the crew of the Neb. would have a good chance to find that device while examining Neo after his rescue.

And the explanation, that a human mind can establish a wireless connection to a machine out of its own... this only would be possible, if the machine is actively receiving input by scanning the activity of the brain (that is already possible today) and actively sending (electro)magnetic signal to the human brain to cause certain effects there (that is currently in R&D stage). But in the Matrix movies I don't see that that the machines are establishing such a connection to Neo. And there is no need for that.

Clockwork wrote:

Main story : Neo has to save mankind. But also the Journey of Neo ... which is necessary for to save mankind (at least the way that it happened in the trilogy). For Neo to realise peace was the only solution to save mankind (or end the war), he needs to realise the machines are 'beings' too (Reloaded : Oracle = program / Revolutions : programs don't 'need' to have a purpose : Sati !) [...]

The main story is not the problem here. But, as I wrote, there is so many blur and fog, there are so many tracks and hints... this is confusing the audience. It is so much confusing, that many people even did not realize what the real main story line was about! And that is the main point why M3 was so disappointing for many people. They did even not notice that Neo was succcessful. He saved mankind.

But don't get me wrong. I like the triology a lot. I just think it could have been much better...