»The Wachowski brothers lost focus«

I also thought the SBB needed to be a little longer, but I still though it was a great fight.

i thought the SBB i was too long, i lost intrest when it went superman on us, if it had been more split up i would of better, plus i holds the matrixs worst punch, the rain breaking, cheekbone crunching, all cgi punch!

starcrow wrote:

'Eyes of the oracle' and his causality speech had no relation to the main plot. So why did he make his speech? It's a lot of blabla, it even sounds good... but has no meaning for the main plot.

Eyes of the Oracle is used in the plot for Smith, after he takes over the Oracle (not completely). Extremely important for Neo's 'choice' at the end of the Super Brawl

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[Love theme important <=>] But not Pers. Her scenes have no meaning. They only add fog and blur.

She is the first representation of 'Love' in a program ... only in a superficial/material way

She is that and only that, and unfortunate, this is her (only) reason in the film (next to her clevage ^_^ ), any other socalled tracks 'put there' are due to expectations (see more in my reply about expectations)

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[Merovingian & Persephone only subplots] I would rather say there was no need for all these tracks and hints. They are only there do make the movie look deeper, with hidden meanings and everything... they are just deceiving.

Again this comes down to expectations, see reply below about expectations.

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but what has the Oracle to do with that [Sati being the revolutionary first program made without purpose]? And why does Seraph takes so much care of her? But there might be some overinterpretation here.

Because in the 'game' played by the Oracle, she is so important. She is -from the point of the machines/programs- the most important accomplishement. That's also why Seraph takes so much care of her, since 'he protects that what matters most'.

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The expectations are just the effect of that cause... so to speak. And those tracks and hints where set and placed by the filmmakers. So, who is to blame?

But what if the effects are not the intended? There nothing wrong with expectations, but too much is too much (trop is te veel en te veel is trop) ...

Indeed tracks and hints are set and placed by filmmakers, but tracks and hints get often misinterpreted ... is it the job of filmmakers to take care of those 'extra' (non-intended) tracks ?

Persephone's layed out tracks are mostly due to wrong expectations, as is the idea that the Merovingian should get a more important role in Revolutions.

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Indeed! Wireless connections make completely sense! What is lame is the explanation for the wireless connection.

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this ...

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The rebels also do not connect wirelessly.

The ships do broadcast, but that is irrelevant here...

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Even for The One, there is no need for such a connection, <...> as he is [not] expected to perform some stunts in the real world.

I never said the connection ability was intended by the machines, since this is the first time any'one' choice the left door... what the film suggests, is that Neo managed to 'touch the Source', ie make the connection ... and that is the only 'stunt' he does in the real world (hack the signals of machines connected to the machine mainframe and destroy them through this connection)

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And the explanation, <...> only would be possible, if the machine is actively receiving input by scanning the activity of the brain (...) and actively sending (electro)magnetic signal to the human brain to cause certain effects there. But in the Matrix movies I don't see that that the machines are establishing such a connection to Neo. And there is no need for that.

If you want to go into detail of the explanation, which isn't given for the wireless connection.... [*], lets investigate the connection between the Sentinels and the 'machine mainframe' (or just with the Agents) : don't you think the actions you described (active scanning and sending) need to happen to 'deploy the sentinels' etc ? If we agree on that ... wouldn't it be possible, considering Neo having hacking skills, that Neo could hack the Sentinel communications ?


[*] nor is it given for the cable-connections in the pods, or in the ships ! Do you want to know how light-sabers work after watching Star Wars, or did you want to know how doors opened in Star Trek, and how gravity is solved inside the ships ? No, that is the strength of Science-Fiction ! To suggest fictionary science, but please don't explain it into detail ...

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And that is the main point why M3 was so disappointing for many people. They did even not notice that Neo was succcessful. He saved mankind.

Wrong expectations ... even when explained he did save mankind, most people still wanted the machines to be destroyed.

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But don't get me wrong. I like the triology a lot. I just think it could have been much better...

Indeed, they could have been better ... but not better in my book for the reason you mentioned, more preproduction and more time could (could !) make them better...

Clockwork wrote:

Quote: [Merovingian & Persephone only subplots] I would rather say there was no need for all these tracks and hints. They are only there do make the movie look deeper, with hidden meanings and everything... they are just deceiving. Again this comes down to expectations, see reply below about expectations.

Well, Of course it does. For example, when Mero captures the Keymaker, we clearly expect that there is some reason for that... but it is never explained. Didn't you expect some explanations on Mero to come in M3? Be honest.

Clockwork wrote:

Quote: The expectations are just the effect of that cause... so to speak. And those tracks and hints where set and placed by the filmmakers. So, who is to blame? But what if the effects are not the intended?

Come on. Do tou really belive that? Of course these things were placed to raise certain expectations. And of course the cliffhanger at the end of M2 was placed just with the intention to make the audience think that, again, there is a big twist in store for M3 and M3 will present a different view on the Matrix again.

Clockwork wrote:

Indeed tracks and hints are set and placed by filmmakers, but tracks and hints get often misinterpreted ...

Yea, I agree. So wouldn't it be better if those tracks were either (1) more clear, so everyone can follow them easily or (2) better explained and conected by the filmmakers. Regarding 'Matrix', all those bits and pieces just confuse the audience and blur the main story line. Many people even cannot follow the main story any more.

Clockwork wrote:

I never said the connection ability was intended by the machines, since this is the first time any'one' choice the left door... what the film suggests, is that Neo managed to 'touch the Source', ie make the connection

Neo ist just a human, and therefore just has a human brain. And a human brain can't do that in the real world. The power of The One is located inside of the Matrix. In the real world, he is human. Even if the sum of the remainders, some additional 'The One" code (or whatever) changed hins mind, all this would be software.

The only somewhat reasonable explanation I could find is, that the additional mind-code in Neo's mind 'unlocked' some secret function is his hardware implants, maybe the Oracle secretly installed these functions when Neo was cloned and equipped with the hardware-implants... but this does not really make me happy. And this is not an explanation one can easily find spontaneously in the cinema. And yes, M3 should present an obvious solution for that as it is an important point for the audience. Everthing else is... confusing.

Clockwork wrote:

Do you want to know how light-sabers work after watching Star Wars, or did you want to know how doors opened in Star Trek

I don't care for that because it has nothing to do with the plot itself. These things are deoration. But Neo's stunt certainly is part of the main story line.

Anyway. The thing about Neo's stunt and so many other things in the triology can be expalined just as you want. Everyone can explain it for him/herself. Maybe, for someone else, Neo was sent by some God, who had mercy on mankind.

I don't say that the blur in the movies is not facinating. You can come up with many ideas. But there are too many things you can come up with. I think this is disappointing. The mystery-card was played too often, the storyline apprears a bit too fraiyed. Maybe the brothers got a bit lost in this net of mysteries, tracks and hints...

starcrow wrote:

Didn't you expect some explanations on Mero to come in M3? Be honest.

No I did not, sure I would like to see more background about the Merovingian and others (Seraph !), but not in the movie. This would in fact be more distracting from the plot than the blurs etc you find so distracting. To me anyway ...

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Clockwork wrote: But what if the effects are not the intended? Come on. Do tou really believe that? Of course these things were placed to raise certain expectations.

I have to admit, yeah, these things (the causes) probably are left open with intention. But the blame of the expectation (the effects) coupled with it lies as much with the audience -the 'expectators' (sp?)- as with the authors.

The reason behind it (leave things open) is not to confuse, but to allow own interpretation, and I thank them for it.

Another example of this is the Twins. In Reloaded, they are merely presented as exiles that are in duty of the Merovingian, nothing more ! But because they are so cool characters (visual), almost everyone expected them to return and play a (big) role in Revolutions, but that (being cool) is no reason at all to justify that ... If there isn't a story-wise reason to give them more screentime, there is no need to ... (same reasoning goes for Persephone, Seraph, ...)

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And of course the cliffhanger at the end of M2 was placed just with the intention to make the audience think that, again, there is a big twist in store for M3 and M3 will present a different view on the Matrix again.

Sure, the problem is, the majority didn't (want to) catch that different view. Or more important, they didn't like the different view

[ = another 'being', that might be equal to us (humans), and with whom we make a deal and live together. Hinted at in both M1 and Reloaded, but only fully presented in Revolutions ]

But I don't think a (more in depth) explanation for Neo's stunts (disabling Sentinels and 'bombs') or for Merovingian or for Persephone would help to get/like that view.

The same way, I think leaving the distracting things out wouldn't help either...

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So wouldn't it be better if those tracks were either (1) more clear, so everyone can follow them easily or (2) better explained and conected by the filmmakers.

It's quite obvious I don't think this would make the film better ... Those two options would make a difference so that more people would 'like' the movie, but it wouldn't help to see/like the different view in Revolutions.

At the same time, making it more clear, simple (spoon-fed), or eplaining the connections in more detail (again, more spone-fed), would change my interest in the trilogy, it would loose its strength for me, the own interpretation-factor would be lost.

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Regarding 'Matrix', all those bits and pieces just confuse the audience and blur the main story line. Many people even cannot follow the main story any more.

Do you really believe they can't follow the main story because of the confusing bits you mentioned (Neo's stunt, Mero's and Persephone's stand, ...) ?

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And yes, M3 should present an obvious solution for that [Neo's stunt, ability to hack the machine mainframe] as it is an important point for the audience. Everthing else is... confusing.

I don't think making it more obvious would make it better, it would make it worse (it is rather obvious to me)

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Anyway. The thing about Neo's stunt and so many other things in the triology can be expalined just as you want. Everyone can explain it for him/herself. Maybe, for someone else

That was the purpose of the filmmakers, so they didn't lost focus in this aspect.

And I would like to see an justifiable explanation how "Neo [would be] sent by some God, who had mercy on mankind."

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I don't say that the blur in the movies is not facinating. You can come up with many ideas. But there are too many things you can come up with. I think this is disappointing. The mystery-card was played too often, the storyline apprears a bit too fraiyed. Maybe the brothers got a bit lost in this net of mysteries, tracks and hints...

I'm interested in how many times (and where) the mistery card is played, and where it hurts the film ...

I) How many of those are important (and not resolved) for the main story (and should be explained in more detail)?

II) How many of those are only confusing for (and thus distracting from) the main story (and should be simplified)?

For my personal experience, I can't select one that satisfies last two questions. Either their purpose is clear in the movie and simplify it would hurt the story, or more in depth explanation would distract more from the main story.

The only character that is left in the blur in every aspect, is Seraph (relation with Merovingian (Judas), relation with Smith), but the mystery of Seraph doesn't hurt the main story at all.

Clockwork wrote:

Quote: Anyway. The thing about Neo's stunt and so many other things in the triology can be expalined just as you want. Everyone can explain it for him/herself. Maybe, for someone else That was the purpose of the filmmakers, so they didn't lost focus in this aspect.

If it was the purpose of the filmmakers to leave the audience standing alone in the rain... then indeed, they did not lose focus and were highly successful... Reminds me X-Files...

Clockwork wrote:

And I would like to see an justifiable explanation how "Neo [would be] sent by some God, who had mercy on mankind."

This explanation is possible, of course. You can explain the things in a thousand ways. Some poeple here call that a feature, for me it's a bug. It makes the movies a bit 'less good' for me. But of course, different people, different opitions. Reminds me moders art (but I don't say that M1-3 is 'modern art' - just an example). Some people are getting very exited over a picture with just one single, small, black, thin line on a white background (I guess a black background would give them even more exitement). I don't. I would at least need some explanation from the artist about his intentions.

starcrow wrote:

Some poeple here call that a feature, for me it's a bug. It makes the movies a bit 'less good' for me.

Don't explain everything, leave it open to interpretation, is something negative for you, and it's what attracts me...

Degrading that notion (the purpose of the filmmakers, allow an own interpretation) to leave the audience standing alone in the rain... gives it a quite negative connotation to it, a view to which anyone is entitled. And one I can understand completely.

But lots of people don't feel 'left alone in the rain', and instead embrace the opportunity to explore the material


The material at hand, which isn't that 'open' and quite clear :

[Another 'being', that might be equal to us (humans), and how to deal with it.]

Hello all....

I am a filmmaker who, like many Matrix fans, had issue with the concluding installment of one of the finest stories ever committed to film. Yet, upon re-examining just what the main problems were, it occurred to me that the most glaring was not the last film itself, but the editing of the last film, and part of the second.

Specifically, I had always had this splinter in my mind bothering me about the overabundance of the second film. That said, Reloaded was my favorite in the series, but while Reloaded perhaps had TOO MUCH, it left Revolutions feeling like it had TOO LITTLE, and even some forced material.

So, the solution became clear - If Reloaded had ended after the two rigs colliding (actually, once "setup" scene later - showing the machines digging), then Revolutions could have begun with The Keymaker outlining his plan in the Matrix, the whole execution of the plan, meeting the Architect, etc. This would have given the flim the ability to do away with most of the unneccessary "Trainman" nonsense, and what felt like "filler".

I've decided to undergo the pet process of re-editing from Reloaded Chapter 26 on the DVD (midway - ending with the shot of the machine swarm - cue RATM!) and then opening Revolutions with the attack on the powerplant, the Architect meeting, etc. To further shorten Revoluitons, I am cutting down several scenes to get straight to the point (i.e. bringing Trinity's painfully long death scene back to respectability - this actually gives it much more emotion and poignacy). There are also some lines by the "new" Oracle that were shortened. The Trainman problem, interestingly, was solved relatively easily by making the references to him by the Indian family synonomous with the Merovingian himself! That also gives the Merovingian increased relavince and continuity is strenthened.

There is much, much more, but please reply and let me know your thoughts!

Im not gonna lie..i was a little pissed after seein Revolutions in the theater. I thought they brought up more questions than answers. But i found something that has changed my mind completely. I dont feel cheated or lost about things in Revolutions anymore. Check out this essay and it should help you out like it did me. Hope u like it...oh if u are a fan of the Matrix in a Matrix theory well u prolly wont like it even though that theory is SHIT..sorry but it is. wylfing.net...

The new game comes out 11.08.05, and promises a NEW ending of the Trilogy! Written by the W Bros....has anyone got any info on what this could be?

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