»THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ZION«

There is no such thing as Zion however it is NOT a matrix in a matrix.

At the start of M3 an image zooms into the green code and keeps going until it goes deeper and into the gold code. This is the source.

The source is all that really exists. Its energy it holds the fundemental rules for space/time....

Sitting on top of this source "fabric" is the real world. But unfortunately the real world does not exist in the REAL way that the souce exists. That does not mean it is a Matrix! It just means the real world is our perception of the source code - we have choices / emotions....love / hatred / fear / etc - but these are just distortions of the fabric to show "us" what "IT" is.

The matrix has been written by a form of intelligence from the "REAL WORLD" (AI). The green code sits directly on top of the gold code - so behaves pretty similar (as we know anyway) to the REAL world.

The source is everywhere and is everything. So - at the level of the gold the boundaries between a conciosness and an active computer program do not really exist!

Thats why everybody is getting confussed because all the theories like MwM / neo is a programme / etc are irrelevant.

diemkai wrote:

The green code sits directly on top of the gold code - so behaves pretty similar (as we know anyway) to the REAL world.

If you live as a program in the green world you wil not see the gold code, but everyone in the green world sees the characters based only on the gold code (no green fabric).

But there are programs that can see through the green fabric in the green world and see the gold code in the green world.

Maybe the first source of the matrix is created on a mainframe in a place called Zion, and do the machines have no access to that mainframe. Zion is in my opinion a very important place.

Zion was that place where the humans lived. Didnt you see the movie?

StaticAge wrote:

Zion was that place where the humans lived. Didnt you see the movie?

ZION is very very important but it's just a visual representation of the word "HOPE".

Hope exists but Zion does not.

adapt and overcome

what i've noticed is that quite alot of people are forgetting that zion isn't meant to be a whole world, zion is a city!
within the "real world" where the "machine city" is and that's where the "source" is.
everyone get it now?

the film isn't meant to recreate mankind from the beginning, everything happened as it does now- t.v's were invented etc up until 1999 where AI which us the humans had been messing with hadd become too powerful and ending up breeding it's own race, humans went to war with the machines, we torched the sky and we lost, however there were some survivors who went underground to escape the machines,they named the city "zion"
simple!

the survivors breded, obviously which is why some zionites have no plugs,other were recruited from the matrix, god knows how we figured how to bypass the matrix and free them and knew they would survive in the real world without the cables etc, but they can,and that's all their is to it!

the first part of my reply is right, there is no other explanation so dont try.
however, the story of survivors and zion could however be not true (unlikely) and may just be a folkstale given to those who don't accept the matrix code- all 1% so giving them a choice!

pixelate wrote:

the first part of my reply is right, there is no other explanation so dont try.

I know what you mean - you cannot literally consider Zion without recognising that it in undergroud city in the REAL WORLD - with the machine city elsewhere.

but....

be carefull with your view of where/what the source is....it is not just a "thing" located at the machine city. The source is everywhere*, neo only goes to to the machine city to see the source code from which the machines a formed - to understand it.

(* - the W's even spell this out to us at the start of the movie! they show an image zooming deeper and deeper into the code until they go beyond the green and into the gold - its the first thing they say to us when the movie starts)

The gold code is everywhere - in zion / real world it defines.

At locations in the power plant the souce has another code on top of it - matrix code - at this precise location the matrix code defines existence for the human prisoners - however the gold code is beneath it - just a bit deeper.



[/quote]

The gold isn't code. It's the spirit of the Machines from the Machine City.

Hi Chain,

You can't just come out and laugh at someone without explaining yourself -

what do you mean -
"the gold is the machine's spirit" What is a spirit?
Why is it only in machine city?

Hya man. I sort tof explained this in another thread. To answer the last question, only the machines from the City have it, because they are the only ones to have this sophisticated AI.

Humans have Souls. Your Soul is a piece of God. Nothing more or less. It's pure. Deux Ex/Architect is the AI version of God. Your physical body and consious thinking is just a shell, just like the machines metal and circuits are. The AI in the machines are their souls/spirit.

zion is real, neo did not see ne gold code like you think, he only saw the machines bio electricity, if he saw coding then dont you think that he could have seen more then just the machines in "code" because wen he was walking he only saw the stuff he was walking on, his legs were oulined because they were surrounded by the machines so thats y they looked black, and in the background of the fight with bane/smith wen neo first saw the "code" the background was also black, nothing but the machines. there is no matrix within a matrix, if that were true the whole movie series would accomplish nothing, and if it were dont u think that neo being the one could have flown and stuff in the real world matrix and not just the matrix matrix, dont you think he could have used his jujustsu on bane/smith instead of just streat fighter alpha three junk, well i think that if there is a matrix within then that ruins the movie, plus u dont see ne gliches in the real world, how could the machines perfect one matrix but not the other, and y r the machines making the wolrd so terrible in the real world matrix, ill tell you y, cus its not a matrix its just the real world, they dont say in the animatrix, wen explaining everything of how the war started and junk, they never say that the world is accualy the matrix as well, i mean do u guys think mithotically at all, ur theories are completley nonseceical, if the this were so then the matrix in the matrix would fall, becuase that would be the result of a new unbalanced equation, if there is no balance the unbalaced will be removed just like smith was, neo died smith was unbalanced he died, as simple as that.

Who are you speaking to? Speak more directly to a person. Because nothing of your shit applies to what I said, alltough you write as if we all have to listen to you, WP.

Diemkai and White_Pawn,

I see where you guys are coming from. Check out the two posts I made in the following thread before I visited THIS one:

I came to that conclusion as well right after I watched Revolutions WP. I think everyone that thinks that the matrix is compiled from multiple matracies they really should watch the series again. If anything the real world is not a Matrix because of the fact Trinity and Neo flew out of the clouds and was able to see the sun and sky. But what bakes my noodle (pun intended) is if you have seen Matriculated on the Animatrix is that we have to be the ones to show them they have a choice, much like the oracle did for humanity. Chain, I feel you may not accept some constructive criticism, realize that this is a forum to openly discuss OPINIONS. If you do not like someone elses opinion please do not berate them. Looks like you have a minimally functioning brain, so back off and feel free to find somone who agrees with your opinion and you can buddy buddy up to them.

It's just the way he spoke. Making everything what's said before him on this thread seem untrue. Plus, he lays his opinions op to people as no other than truth. I hate that. Btw, his feet were black just because his body covered his vision of what's behind his body. I never say anything about anything unless I am sureabout things. Ofcourse there's no MwM. And the way WP spoke, is as if we all ("do you guys really think"blah) think things wrong. that, plz.

I have never thougt about the idea of a matrix within a matrix before I read the statement on the main site. When i think about it, 2 alternatives comes to my mind. 1: the wachowski brothers did a mistake in the sentinel going through neo's body scene and all the other stuff that made the matrix within matrix theory. they did this unaware of the fact that many people might come to think of the matrix within matrix. Or 2: the brothers show once again that they are geniuses, camouflage the matrix within matrix fact, not even revealing it in the movies and letting the real fans find out by themselves, (and maybe confirm it later).

anyone agree?

White_Pawn wrote:

zion is real, neo did not see ne gold code like you think, he only saw the machines bio electricity, if he saw coding then dont you think that he could have seen more then just the machines in "code" because wen he was walking he only saw the stuff he was walking on, his legs were oulined because they were surrounded by the machines so thats y they looked black, and in the background of the fight with bane/smith wen neo first saw the "code" the background was also black, nothing but the machines. there is no matrix within a matrix

Sorry white prawn I really dissagree - you have really not "cleared this up once and for all" - there are other ways to interpret the movies.

if you were making a movie in which you wanted people to think about things such "what is real" and "purpose" and "meaning" then it would be a little simple to stop at a certain level and just say this is this because of bio-electricity - WTF is bi-electricity - that doesnt mean an awfull lot really - it certainly doent answer anything in the context of the film.

Look - something exists - we know that because we are here.

What we see can be broken down into building blocks - atoms then nuetrons, electrons then quarks....maybe you can keep going but in the end you will only find one thing ....ENERGY.

The Matrix in the movies is just a representation of this - the matrix when broken down further the building blocks can been seen - the code which holds the rules - just like the rules which govern the atoms and electrons etc.

So you see it is perhaps not an endless matrix within a matrix within a matrix, they only show us four ways of looing at the world:


(1) The M A T R I X (sunglasses and cool fights)
(2) The G R E E N C O D E
(3) The R E A L W O R L D
(4) The S O U R C E

So what they are showing is an analogy between the relationship between (1) + (2) and the relationship between (3) + (4).

The real design of the system can be understood with the following two rules.

(1) is to (2) ....as (3) is to (4)
(1) is to (2) ....as ((1)+(2)) is to ((3)+(4))

The whole thing is an analogy / metaphor whatever for the real world. Its an image / reflection / copy / simulation.

What we call real in the real world doesnt really mean real - we still have a code - we can even "see" the code - we learn about it in physics - we just dont call it "the code".

Quote:

What we call real in the real world doesnt really mean real - we still have a code - we can even "see" the code - we learn about it in physics - we just dont call it "the code".

Now, thats! scary.
it makes you wonder

diemkai wrote:

At the start of M3 an image zooms into the green code and keeps going until it goes deeper and into the gold code. This is the source.

After reading this part of your post again, my previous message should have read: White_Pawn, I see where you are coming from.

What is the Matrix

They show four perceptions –

1- The matrix (where they all wear sunglasses and act cool)

2- The green code

3- Zion / real / machine world – (dirty jumpers / big machines)

4- Gold code (the source)



I think the gold code is energy and that’s all there is really. so what are the matrix / the green code and zion?:

The gold code is not part of the matrix which has been programmed by the machines. The gold code is the fundamental fabric of space/time or energy. It is fundamental to both man and machine - the worlds we see (real and matrix) both sit on top of this source.

(you have to imagine that although the architect is shown as the programmer/designer of the matrix he also represents the the same thing which would have programmed the real world from the gold code – the matrix can be seen as a blatant metaphor for the real world level ie. From the perception levels above: 1 is to 2 …..as ……….3 is to 4.)

This source is manipulated by architect and oracle together in very different but necessary ways. The architect only wants to achieve mathematical balance - the easiest way for this to be achieved would be for a sum of zero's - perfect balance - unfortunately this would be a rather dull existence and the human population would very rapidly reject this "zero" scenario (depending how you want to look at it the human would either "wake up" from the matrix or would be dead).

Te oracles purpose is to introduce extremes, differences leading to the concept of choice - however these extremes, differences or choices are only possible if the opposite exists in order for overall balance to be achieved - the "words" we use such as love/hate - birth/death - neo/smith....

everything is a balance between two opposites/extremes - the functioning of the matrix itself is even a balance - the architect and the oracle themselves balance each other and balance the operation of the matrix.

We either have what we have or we have nothing. What the architect is effectively providing is the mathematics which give the rules of the apparent substance around us - these rules sit on the gold code, but if this were it and everything were made of the same stuff there would appear to be nothing. The oracle provides "existence" simply by serving up substance in a rich way - extremes and opposites - in order for us to know what we are we must also experience what we are not (otherwise there is nothing).

There is no spoon. There is no Zion.

I am sure that if Zion was considered real it would be the most important scene to end the trilogy with. Its not though.

The final scene is in the matrix - the new matrix without the green hue. This time the hue is blue - just like it is in our real world. They are in our real world.

If you were making the movies and Zion were real wouldn't you end it with a scene in Zion with Morpheus?

The movie is about the matrix. The end of the movie is showing the hope that can be seen in the matrix which was not there before. Man is free now to choose to leave.

Thats all Zion represents - its a visual metaphor for the human emotion/word "hope".

diemkai wrote:

Thats all Zion represents - its a visual metaphor for the human emotion/word "hope".

Just (if it is meant to) because Zion represents hope does not mean it is not real. The films are about the matrix - last time I checked they were called "The Matrix" anyway. I do not see any reson why the end scene should be in the real world, there is much more to 'close up' in teh Matrix world after all that happens. I have to say I agree with White_Pawn's view.

This gold code you speak of, I assume you are referring to the light Neo sees emitted from the machines in the real world after he is blinded by Bane. This does not in any way resemble code in my opinion. I'd have to see teh first 'code sequence' at the start of Revolutions again but I assume this is the gold code that can be seen in teh Matrix by Neo for programs such as Seraph etc. This is the only type of gold code I have seen.

I understand your point that your 'gold code' and Zion, the green code and Matrix are analagous to the real world. My question is why then? What point are they making? Is the matrix not already analagous to the real world without the 'gold code' you speak of?

diemkai wrote:

If you were making the movies and Zion were real wouldn't you end it with a scene in Zion with Morpheus?

i think the end of the movie shows who the puppet masters were all along. i mean, we're shown a Morpheus that we can get behind, but in the end, he's just a pawn, a bit player who acted out his part perfectly.