»Who's still buying into the whole MWAM theory?«

Just wondering if there's anyone in here who still puts stock in MWAM. I sure hope not. It's been a year since I've watched Revolutions, but every time I do, the answer is just as clear as the first time.

I hope you've resolved your differences and come to grips with the truth: there can be only one.

Marsoullis wrote:

Just wondering if there's anyone in here who still puts stock in MWAM. I sure hope not. It's been a year since I've watched Revolutions, but every time I do, the answer is just as clear as the first time. I hope you've resolved your differences and come to grips with the truth: there can be only one.

*Raises hand*

I've got news for you.

The Matrix and all matrices deal in "property", in the natural and artificial worlds.

What does that mean?

intell wrote:

What does that mean?

The tangible and intangible... That which is real and has the illusion of
real... All property comes with rights and interests... protection and preservation.... risk and chance.... duties and obligations... war and peace... knowledge and informaion...., and therein lies the bondage and prison of the mind. The property in a thing
must have a valid purpose, object, or reason.. from time to time.. progress, but when those purposes, objects, and reasons lose that character or quality, or are used and abused, they lose there value or they corrupt.

Marsoullis wrote:

Just wondering if there's anyone in here who still puts stock in MWAM. I sure hope not. It's been a year since I've watched Revolutions, but every time I do, the answer is just as clear as the first time. I hope you've resolved your differences and come to grips with the truth: there can be only one.

d abord mettez vos lunettes (de soleil)
on les a niques
je t attend chez ma mere
don't forget the film

neone wrote:

intell wrote: What does that mean? The tangible and intangible... That which is real and has the illusion of real... All property comes with rights and interests... protection and preservation.... risk and chance.... duties and obligations... war and peace... knowledge and informaion...., and therein lies the bondage and prison of the mind. The property in a thing must have a valid purpose, object, or reason.. from time to time.. progress, but when those purposes, objects, and reasons lose that character or quality, or are used and abused, they lose there value or they corrupt.

Then what is the matrix?

intell wrote:

neone wrote: intell wrote: What does that mean? The tangible and intangible... That which is real and has the illusion of real... All property comes with rights and interests... protection and preservation.... risk and chance.... duties and obligations... war and peace... knowledge and informaion...., and therein lies the bondage and prison of the mind. The property in a thing must have a valid purpose, object, or reason.. from time to time.. progress, but when those purposes, objects, and reasons lose that character or quality, or are used and abused, they lose there value or they corrupt. Then what is the matrix?

Close your eyes... take a deep breath... and then open... you are in the
matrix... look beyond and through everything around you, and see that you and the objects around you are bound by rules and regulation, in ownership, possession, and use.... including what you are wearing... or where you employ your person... but that is the illusion of real... for most people see only the things/extrinsically... not the machinations and compute(ers) that lie within... the properties, values, estate, trust, and watered stock and bonds of those things and the machines (the algebraic and atomic sentences-words, terms, and symbols of art and science) and spirit (or ghost of prior rights and interests effecting) of the meaning of those words that move and control them, and the private and public rights and interests in those machines and other certain/uncertain assurances.

A rock is a rock.... (an ocean a 'natural' highway....) a mineral a mineral.... an ore and ore... until explored (property)and found and processed (property) and melted down to make a "spoon" designed (design-property)... a commodity...., but a protection in process or design, and the custom and contracts written/unwritten to ship laden/load, unladen/unload, or reladen/reload are intangible intellectual rights and interests with binding purposes and objects, protected by? Is it realiy a spoon or is it a fork or spork, you design. knowledge, information, Imagination, and innovation shall set you free....opportunity....promotion... bondage.

People believe they own their homes(and vehicles), but in "realilty" they own accrued(time) equity (intangilbe value-representative of labor stored) in a piece of paper; which, represents the home (collateral) and lines drawn on a map representing a surface of land, and other rights and interests(intellectual property)-protection and preservation(and their possession/occupation of and use). When they went to purchase the property they matriculated (chose of action) their principal rights to a special agent to act for them, and now the agent is united in right and interests to do for them what they could have done for themselves, and is now capable of binding the principal (reciprocal and mutual obligations & duties) with third parties and others of (transparent/secret) interest, and whom must compute/account(measure/balance/{war-[a battle of forms]}).

What is the difference between two pieces of paper manufactured identically, (same or similar paper-ink-design)one showing on its face 100 dollars and and the other appears 10 dollars? Is that what you believe? or is it what you were told. What value does it contain or represent within?
ah, magic....

Who is the person(account) on your drivers license? What franchise have you taken of the machines? Have you pirated there property or property under their protection?


Matrix?
ah, an open' or is that a closed or colored book?....hmm... experiment-created... origin...costs/capital/indebtedness...evolving...liberty of use....opportunity....problem... question... information....examination....calculation.... novel solution... experiment---cyclical/innovation.... relation/connection/nexus.... property/value.... rights and interests....

The world projection of experiments(property).. a meritocracy of socialistic & other ideology... community of interest over individualism, balanced/unbalanced by individualism..., but it is obvious & logical to reason "that one cannot survive alone in the real world or can they?", but you were not created by man, and hence your rights in yourself do not come from man, but that which you possess or use (property) created by man or by man or as a whole, through the architecture of building and designing a machine or fiction controls your right or interests and other choses of action in relation thereto. Do you have the manufactures certificate of origin, title, or a mere certificate of title? Are you the owner or merely a holder - as tennant with agent of the real.

The wool has been pulled over your eyes... programmed by all those around you... your history and your knowledge of history started from the time you were born. The immoveable truth, another story....

The Matrix....
Wherein do you find the protection(security) and preservation of the tangible and intangible-local,domestic, intrastate, interstate, foreign, and international?

hmm... co-operation, co-incidents, con-fusion of goods, chance, and property....comity, account, and balance.... set, unit, measure.... waste(property), fraud, cons-piracy.... responsiblity, conduct, liability.... relief and remedy....

What did the people of Alexandria destroy? and why?


? *copyright 2007 NeOne* -Alias property of Mr. Anderson ? copyleft

"Close your eyes...and then open"
Systems of control or systems of familiarity? Which one is the better focus?

"A rock is a rock"
It is all imagination.

"People believe they own their homes."
What people? And as for a piece of paper representing ownership, isn't everything physical a representation, really?

As for the social structure you address, people looking for stability in their worldview. Alexandria is what happens when people react to worldviews that disrupt their stability.

This is from The Matrix Online:

intell wrote:

"Close your eyes...and then open" Systems of control or systems of familiarity? Which one is the better focus? "A rock is a rock" It is all imagination. "People believe they own their homes." What people? And as for a piece of paper representing ownership, isn't everything physical a representation, really? As for the social structure you address, people looking for stability in their worldview. Alexandria is what happens when people react to worldviews that disrupt their stability.

The focus is the same... If you were born into a system of control.... then you are only familiar with that system/systems. It is only knowledge, information, and understanding with actual freedom of thought and action that will achive insight, enlightenment, and focus.

A rock is property made up of properties... exists in fact -tangible... and is defined, described, analyzed, tested, by the imagination... It is the imagination that makes it more than a rock and creates a spoon - idea (value) or even a book. A spoon that may be melted down and created into a new idea. It is the value of that property that is intangilbe. The word rock represents a thing, the word thing represent the object, the word object represents.... the rock (named) is still a rock regardless of the word used to describe or represent what it is, as it is something that exists in fact, not imaginary.

Ask your friends if they own their homes/land..., it is what they believe..., you don't? You believe that that piece of paper represents your home, but it only represent the interests/equity (a deposit of labor/value-intangilbe) you have in that paper and nothing more.... even if you paid-off all loans you will never own that home/land. Do you not pay rent to the county each year? And if you failed to pay that rent.., what would happen? If you died intestate (without heir) that interests/equity would escheat back to the system.

hmm. Are you a representation? or are you represented by other things, your words, actions, choices, or preconceived ideas and proramming?
Everything that exists may be described by the man made creation known as the alphabet, signals from the brain sounding out prior programming, but rights and interests exist in the property of that creation, design, or idea.

Alexandria and any empire that has ever fallen...., have fallen through oppressiveness and lack of confidence (trust) of the people in that experiment or system. Progess is a beautiful thing, but when progress is used to oppress for progress sake, it is mere illusion of stability. It is not that people didn't understand (progress) what was going on there.., it is when they found out the truth (perspective) of their oppression and bondage.

NeOne -alias trade-mark property of Mr. Anderson copyleft

neone wrote:

The focus is the same... If you were born into a system of control.... then you are only familiar with that system/systems. It is only knowledge, information, and understanding with actual freedom of thought and action that will achive insight, enlightenment, and focus.

You have ultimate control of what you become familiar with. When you get to the point where you realise this, then you stop placing the blame..uh I mean responsibility on "systems" for your thoughts.

neone wrote:

A rock is property made up of properties... exists in fact -tangible... and is defined, described, analyzed, tested, by the imagination... It is the imagination that makes it more than a rock and creates a spoon - idea (value) or even a book. A spoon that may be melted down and created into a new idea. It is the value of that property that is intangilbe. The word rock represents a thing, the word thing represent the object, the word object represents.... the rock (named) is still a rock regardless of the word used to describe or represent what it is, as it is something that exists in fact, not imaginary.

Taking it a step further, imagination and familiarity is what makes it a rock to you from the get-go.

neone wrote:

Ask your friends if they own their homes/land..., it is what they believe..., you don't?

No.

neone wrote:

You believe that that piece of paper represents your home, but it only represent the interests/equity (a deposit of labor/value-intangilbe) you have in that paper and nothing more.... even if you paid-off all loans you will never own that home/land. Do you not pay rent to the county each year? And if you failed to pay that rent.., what would happen? If you died intestate (without heir) that interests/equity would escheat back to the system.

Guess what, it's all part of the "system". Why does it matter?

neone wrote:

hmm. Are you a representation? or are you represented by other things, your words, actions, choices, or preconceived ideas and proramming?

I believe both to be true.

neone wrote:

Everything that exists may be described by the man made creation known as the alphabet, signals from the brain sounding out prior programming, but rights and interests exist in the property of that creation, design, or idea.

Some things that exist can't be described at all. Why? Because descriptions have to draw on things or ideas that are familiar with to describe things that are not familiar. If you come across something that has no relationship with anything you know as "familiar", how do you take it. This is the real system of control. This is why I keep advocating broadening one's perspective. And unfortunately for you, this will involve developing the proper focus about what you keep talking about.

neone wrote:

Alexandria and any empire that has ever fallen...., have fallen through oppressiveness and lack of confidence (trust) of the people in that experiment or system. Progess is a beautiful thing, but when progress is used to oppress for progress sake, it is mere illusion of stability. It is not that people didn't understand (progress) what was going on there.., it is when they found out the truth (perspective) of their oppression and bondage.

Things become viewed as outmoded and are replaced every day. But replacement is not freedom.

And I know I don't really have to ask this but...Is your perspective based on personal observation or is it a shared perspective that I can research from other sources? In other words, how do you come to the conclusions you state?

intell wrote:

neone wrote: The focus is the same... If you were born into a system of control.... then you are only familiar with that system/systems. It is only knowledge, information, and understanding with actual freedom of thought and action that will achive insight, enlightenment, and focus. You have ultimate control of what you become familiar with. When you get to the point where you realise this, then you stop placing the blame..uh I mean responsibility on "systems" for your thoughts. hmm.. I guess you should blame... or place responsiblity on the "systems" for your thoughts .... for freedom of thought and action is controlling your own fate, but like many who believe they are in ultimate control of their familiar surroundings are in a state of illusion, for there is responsibility and consequences that evolve around your every choice. That choice existed before you made it and was designed for you and every possible mathmatical situation or event, but with uncertainty, but it is designed with the uncertainty in mind, and provides assurances and consequences for each situation, in case. neone wrote: A rock is property made up of properties... exists in fact -tangible... and is defined, described, analyzed, tested, by the imagination... It is the imagination that makes it more than a rock and creates a spoon - idea (value) or even a book. A spoon that may be melted down and created into a new idea. It is the value of that property that is intangilbe. The word rock represents a thing, the word thing represent the object, the word object represents.... the rock (named) is still a rock regardless of the word used to describe or represent what it is, as it is something that exists in fact, not imaginary. Taking it a step further, imagination and familiarity is what makes it a rock to you from the get-go. Imagination isn't what makes it a rock, rock is just a word as love is, the word and definition took imagination and understanding, familiarity -only because you were told, but if I were to use imagination I would design a word to represent the object -"slock" and write a book about it, 300 pages of value to spread knowledge, but then who would understand what I was talking about, when everyone else is familiar(learned) with it as a "rock". neone wrote: Ask your friends if they own their homes/land..., it is what they believe..., you don't? No. neone wrote: You believe that that piece of paper represents your home, but it only represent the interests/equity (a deposit of labor/value-intangilbe) you have in that paper and nothing more.... even if you paid-off all loans you will never own that home/land. Do you not pay rent to the county each year? And if you failed to pay that rent.., what would happen? If you died intestate (without heir) that interests/equity would escheat back to the system. Guess what, it's all part of the "system". Why does it matter? Why does it matter to any slave....? The systems have and always will evolve, cycle, recycle, and create innovative ideas, for better or for worse. Slavery and bondage, both voluntary and involuntary, have existed forever, but the forms of bondage, both tangible and intangible have been altered by revolution and change. That little piece of paper a person signs is there voluntary limited control of choice to be in voluntary bondage to enslave oneself. Revolution doesn't destroy the system, it changes it. The systems have set constitutions and by-laws they are to obey, but sometime the machines corrupt. neone wrote: hmm. Are you a representation? or are you represented by other things, your words, actions, choices, or preconceived ideas and proramming? I believe both to be true. You are not intangible, not imaginable, you exists in fact..., if someone takes a picture(time-travel) of you or writes about you, or you about yourself, your conduct, acts, and choices..., those are representations..., what one writes about mankind are representation. You are not invisible nor a fiction. neone wrote: Everything that exists may be described by the man made creation known as the alphabet, signals from the brain sounding out prior programming, but rights and interests exist in the property of that creation, design, or idea. Some things that exist can't be described at all. Why? Because descriptions have to draw on things or ideas that are familiar with to describe things that are not familiar. If you come across something that has no relationship with anything you know as "familiar", how do you take it. This is the real system of control. This is why I keep advocating broadening one's perspective. And unfortunately for you, this will involve developing the proper focus about what you keep talking about. All things can be descibed and defined by the imagination, it is only a matter of time, examination, investigation, reasoning, and logic. If the first man or woman, and all those that came after sat upon the earth and decided that nothing was "familiar" we'd still be living in the desert of the real and the machinations of art and science would be non-existent, and more than likely so would you, that is, if the oracle/statistical analysis were correct in mortality rates. neone wrote: Alexandria and any empire that has ever fallen...., have fallen through oppressiveness and lack of confidence (trust) of the people in that experiment or system. Progess is a beautiful thing, but when progress is used to oppress for progress sake, it is mere illusion of stability. It is not that people didn't understand (progress) what was going on there.., it is when they found out the truth (perspective) of their oppression and bondage. Things become viewed as outmoded and are replaced every day. But replacement is not freedom. And I know I don't really have to ask this but...Is your perspective based on personal observation or is it a shared perspective that I can research from other sources? In other words, how do you come to the conclusions you state?

[b]It is based upon both, as I was raised believing that something was not right. But from observation and hard research....I can see the natural, and artificial matrices and machines of art and science, the codes, and understand much of there purpose or why.... Research in laws of.... based upon conclusion, opinions, and positions of scholars, philosophers, historians, theorist, and even theologist &c., historical, archival, and archaic evidences, and the study of current and historical law (commerce, trade, international, private, public, insurance, tax, conflicts of, property, transportation, communication, patent, copyrights, trademark, family, probate, securities, bonds, stock, you name it, case law, codes, &c., and those maxims and principles of law in each science of the law. And of course I like to be entertained by the history and science channels by the philosphers, scientists, & so on. There are many machines and compute(rs), and I may know why or there purpose for existence, but I still may not know there technical inner workings or design as some machinations of art and science are secret "need to know", and are protected property.
For a first suggestion, I would tell you to search the internet for old law dictionaries and cyclopedias, some are on the internet free, and begin a long journey through time into reading them. I can point you in the direction of some, if you want?[/b]

I would appreciate that. I'll add it to the research I'm already engaged in.

What you percieve - outer world

Quote:

Imagination isn't what makes it a rock, rock is just a word as love is, the word and definition took imagination and understanding, familiarity -only because you were told, but if I were to use imagination I would design a word to represent the object -"slock" and write a book about it, 300 pages of value to spread knowledge, but then who would understand what I was talking about, when everyone else is familiar(learned) with it as a "rock".

Then imagination IS what makes it a rock, a slock, or whatever concept you have of it.

What you percieve - inner world

Quote:

You are not intangible, not imaginable, you exists in fact...You are not invisible nor a fiction.

Some perspectives state that "you" surely is fiction.

What you do

Quote:

many who believe they are in ultimate control of their familiar surroundings are in a state of illusion, for there is responsibility and consequences that evolve around your every choice. That choice existed before you made it and was designed for you and every possible mathmatical situation or event, but with uncertainty, but it is designed with the uncertainty in mind, and provides assurances and consequences for each situation, in case.

Some perspectives state that there is no dichotomy between "choice" and "consequence". A point to consider is that the actions we make, we make BECAUSE of the consequences, for instance I type because doing so makes what I wish to say become visible and accessible to someone who reads it, this in turn, causes someone to understand it, which in turn causes other things, and all that is fine, of course. The feelings of being "enslaved" to consequences stems, in my opinion, from inadequate knowledge or awareness of consequences, which leads to frequent cases of unintended or unwanted consequences, then people start to feel less in control, when in fact it is their knowledge that is limited, not their "freedom" to act. Theres just no one else to blame.

Perception

Quote:

All things can be descibed and defined by the imagination, it is only a matter of time, examination, investigation, reasoning, and logic.

It is only a matter of imagination.

Quote:

If the first man or woman, and all those that came after sat upon the earth and decided that nothing was "familiar" we'd still be living in the desert of the real and the machinations of art and science would be non-existent, and more than likely so would you.

We (ok, not all) ARE still in the desert of the real but surrounded by our familiarity, that is evaluating present experiences in light of past ones. Only since we are not the first people, we also evaluate others experiences, present and past with ours and formulate worldviews that try to some extent to make sense of all of it. Art is person's or group's expression of their take on it, while science is about comparing perspectives and testing them with some commonly accepted methodology, using some commonly accepted standards or frames of reference.

But I still am interested in your source material.

intell wrote:

What you percieve - outer world Quote: Imagination isn't what makes it a rock, rock is just a word as love is, the word and definition took imagination and understanding, familiarity -only because you were told, but if I were to use imagination I would design a word to represent the object -"slock" and write a book about it, 300 pages of value to spread knowledge, but then who would understand what I was talking about, when everyone else is familiar(learned) with it as a "rock". Then imagination IS what makes it a rock, a slock, or whatever concept you have of it. Yes, imagination is what created the word of art 'rock', but it did not create the object itself, the object has its own existence, and existed long before the word was created to represent it. What you percieve - inner world An inner world of programming from birth. Quote: You are not intangible, not imaginable, you exists in fact...You are not invisible nor a fiction. Some perspectives state that "you" surely is fiction. Yes, I could say 'you' Intell, but then who is intell? Intell is nothing more than the invention of an alter-ego created by your imagination (your art/property)...., there could be more than one Intell, but we could examine, inspect, and investigate to find out the specificaltions of each intell, and find each being responsible for the conduct of each Intell...., but "you" your corpus is an actual physical being..., the corpus of intell is of the intangible intellectual property of your physical being and those chemcial, electrical, biological, and mechanical processes of the brain that sparked the creation.... If Intell violated the property (register agent) of the contract of this site..., they would look beyond Intell to find the user/operator..., for tangible consequences lie upon the human not Intell..., only intangible consequences can effect Intell; which, in turn affects the human. What you do Quote: many who believe they are in ultimate control of their familiar surroundings are in a state of illusion, for there is responsibility and consequences that evolve around your every choice. That choice existed before you made it and was designed for you and every possible mathmatical situation or event, but with uncertainty, but it is designed with the uncertainty in mind, and provides assurances and consequences for each situation, in case. Some perspectives state that there is no dichotomy between "choice" and "consequence". A point to consider is that the actions we make, we make BECAUSE of the consequences, for instance I type because doing so makes what I wish to say become visible and accessible to someone who reads it, this in turn, causes someone to understand it, which in turn causes other things, and all that is fine, of course. The feelings of being "enslaved" to consequences stems, in my opinion, from inadequate knowledge or awareness of consequences, which leads to frequent cases of unintended or unwanted consequences, then people start to feel less in control, when in fact it is their knowledge that is limited, not their "freedom" to act. Theres just no one else to blame. I would agree to a point, but what if you make a choice and the consequences change after the fact? Bullet(in)s-notices are shot out at you all of the time altering (novation) the property/use of the choice..., of course, you can say NO...., and what if the choice is involuntary and is compelled upon you....?, How far is voluntary and involuntary servitude acceptable...? Is involuntary servitude valid for the purpose of responsibility? Is it okay to use trickery and deceit to gain advantage? If I promoted an opportunity to you, and did not disclose some of the consquences or I hide those consequences from you..., could you make an informed decision/choice? Every party to a property have a position, intent, and understanding in connection to that property and the terms of art of that property in relation to blame, obligation, duty, risk, costs, &c. Perception Quote: All things can be descibed and defined by the imagination, it is only a matter of time, examination, investigation, reasoning, and logic. It is only a matter of imagination. Imagination is controlled by time of man/being. If all beings capable of imagination cease to exist, so too does imagination, but time will continue without a blink of the eye..., and so shall all of the objects described and defined in one form or another... Imagination (property of) moves mountains. Quote: If the first man or woman, and all those that came after sat upon the earth and decided that nothing was "familiar" we'd still be living in the desert of the real and the machinations of art and science would be non-existent, and more than likely so would you. Art is person's or group's expression of their take on it, while science is about comparing perspectives and testing them with some commonly accepted methodology, using some commonly accepted standards or frames of reference. Art and science, in the private or public domain, are a confusion of property.... There is art in science and science in art, there is never one without the other. But I still am interested in your source material.

Just a start....

http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier.htm

I see. Your focus seems to be primarily concerned with the legal apparatus and how (and if) to interact with it. My focus is a little broader to encompass the interaction itself and why we do it. Going back to your example for a second, if someone used deceit or half-information to coerce a decision from me, you asked can I make an informed choice. Well within the parameters you set in that example, I would have to say, "no." But those parameters don't really have a real world application. There are always second opinions to seek, more research to do, etc. It is still to a large extent my responsibility to stay uninformed, find out more, do nothing, or follow your opportunity. It all depends on the importance I attach to the decision.

Quote:

for tangible consequences lie upon the human not Intell..., only intangible consequences can effect Intell; which, in turn affects the human.

And even that is debatable.

As I said, though, I think the legal aspect of our lives is really barely scratching the surface of where our focus should be, but it is a valid place to start. To that end, I think you might like to consider the following:

intell wrote:

I see. Your focus seems to be primarily concerned with the legal apparatus and how (and if) to interact with it. My focus is a little broader to encompass the interaction itself and why we do it. Going back to your example for a second, if someone used deceit or half-information to coerce a decision from me, you asked can I make an informed choice. Well within the parameters you set in that example, I would have to say, "no." But those parameters don't really have a real world application. There are always second opinions to seek, more research to do, etc. It is still to a large extent my responsibility to stay uninformed, find out more, do nothing, or follow your opportunity. It all depends on the importance I attach to the decision. Quote: for tangible consequences lie upon the human not Intell..., only intangible consequences can effect Intell; which, in turn affects the human. And even that is debatable. As I said, though, I think the legal aspect of our lives is really barely scratching the surface of where our focus should be, but it is a valid place to start. To that end, I think you might like to consider the following: audible.com...

The part I listened to so far was very simplistic and easily understandable, but it is the evolutional history of the laws of all arts and sciences (not just legal) that control those dreams/ideas as they cycle and recycle with new innovations (dreams/ideas). When I say all arts, that also includes all religions. where nature meets art, you have no choice (there is no "and if") but to interact with it..., you merely choose which art you desire, want, need, or is of necessity..., We do it... as it is human nature and prior spriitual, moral, ethical, formal, political, social, &c programming and new programming. Say or suggest something long enough and a large percentage of society will believe it, even if it is merely theory or false. The real world and the matrices that surround you are inseperably connected during war, peace, or in a state of belligerency, and will, when it wants, hold you accountable for any naughty thing intell does.

Informed choice is a calming illusion for uncertain/certain decisions..., when you seek an opinion of (historical persons) someone with expert or techincal knowledge..., you place an actual 'trust' in that persons knowledge and education.... even with a second opinion...., but that does not mean that the person will not breach the trust for his or their advantage, won't have your interests at heart, or is simply mistaken.

Responsibility is nothing more than a measure in relation to the property.

Everything you do is based upon the laws of all art and science upon property and your interaction with that property, an account, and the property of that account and the property of that account in trust.... Why? is for each individual account - a different case, a new creation. Why do you like vanilla and I chocolate, or someone else cookie dough.., mechanical and chemical senses or learned behaviors, makes no difference..., the creation of the choices were already there, laid out on a program called a menu, you may choose which door (ice cream), the choices were created with you and everyone else in mind with other programs controlling there mechanical, chemical, legal, moral, ethical, &c properties within the subsurface and surface of those properties.

intell wrote:

Going back to your example for a second, if someone used deceit or half-information to coerce a decision from me, you asked can I make an informed choice. Well within the parameters you set in that example, I would have to say, "no." But those parameters don't really have a real world application. There are always second opinions to seek, more research to do, etc. It is still to a large extent my responsibility to stay uninformed, find out more, do nothing, or follow your opportunity.

neone wrote:

Informed choice is a calming illusion for uncertain/certain decisions..., when you seek an opinion of (historical persons) someone with expert or techincal knowledge..., you place an actual 'trust' in that persons knowledge and education.... even with a second opinion...., but that does not mean that the person will not breach the trust for his or their advantage, won't have your interests at heart, or is simply mistaken.

Actually when I seek (and I think I can speak for many in different situations) opinions from others, it is not necessarily that I 'trust' that persons knowledge, education, etc, per se, or that I believe that person has my best interests at heart. I believe that it is more that we trust our ability to discern the best course to take after considering more info on the subject at hand. And you're right, even that may be WAY off and has been. A "calming illusion".

intell wrote:

intell wrote: Going back to your example for a second, if someone used deceit or half-information to coerce a decision from me, you asked can I make an informed choice. Well within the parameters you set in that example, I would have to say, "no." But those parameters don't really have a real world application. There are always second opinions to seek, more research to do, etc. It is still to a large extent my responsibility to stay uninformed, find out more, do nothing, or follow your opportunity. neone wrote: Informed choice is a calming illusion for uncertain/certain decisions..., when you seek an opinion of (historical persons) someone with expert or techincal knowledge..., you place an actual 'trust' in that persons knowledge and education.... even with a second opinion...., but that does not mean that the person will not breach the trust for his or their advantage, won't have your interests at heart, or is simply mistaken. Actually when I seek (and I think I can speak for many in different situations) opinions from others, it is not necessarily that I 'trust' that persons knowledge, education, etc, per se, or that I believe that person has my best interests at heart. I believe that it is more that we trust our ability to discern the best course to take after considering more info on the subject at hand. And you're right, even that may be WAY off and has been. A "calming illusion".

When you go to a lawyer, doctor, accountant, or other gatekeeper, you must place trust upon their knowledge in the field of study and practice, especially if you have no knowledge in that subject, and yes we must all trust in ourselves to discern the best course to take, but..., your trust in yourself in based upon prior programming; which, has molded your beliefs..., I am no diffferent..., and so it is a journey to unlearn and question all things, and to learn all history in all fields of nature, art, and science, as I no longer wish to be calmed or comfortable by illusion.

unlearn and question everything you think you know about the world around you.

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When you go to a lawyer, doctor, accountant, or other gatekeeper, you must place trust upon their knowledge in the field of study and practice,

When you to a lawyer, doctor, etc., you've already placed your trust...No?

Quote:

and yes we must all trust in ourselves to discern the best course to take, but..., your trust in yourself in based upon prior programming; which, has molded your beliefs...,

Belief is highly dependant on prior experience.

Quote:

and so it is a journey to unlearn and question all things, and to learn all history in all fields of nature, art, and science, as I no longer wish to be calmed or comfortable by illusion.

Instead of focusing on "unlearn" and "question" (which is really a euphemism for "discredit", I would focus on "learn" and "research" and "reexamination".

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unlearn and question everything you think you know about the world around you.

Nah. Learn more about the world around you and look deeper into the stuff you believe is true.

intell wrote:

Quote: When you go to a lawyer, doctor, accountant, or other gatekeeper, you must place trust upon their knowledge in the field of study and practice, When you to a lawyer, doctor, etc., you've already placed your trust...No? Not til' you make the selection of the choices...of which gatekeeper you wish to trust with your life.... I may visit and make an 'appointment' with several, but the trust is not complete until I make my choice...., and then I may have made the wrong choice or had three or more bad choices to select from. Quote: and yes we must all trust in ourselves to discern the best course to take, but..., your trust in yourself in based upon prior programming; which, has molded your beliefs..., Belief is highly dependant on prior experience. Most of your experiences are based upon your prior programming, but there is alway innovation to experiences. Quote: and so it is a journey to unlearn and question all things, and to learn all history in all fields of nature, art, and science, as I no longer wish to be calmed or comfortable by illusion. Instead of focusing on "unlearn" and "question" (which is really a euphemism for "discredit", I would focus on "learn" and "research" and "reexamination". Quote: unlearn and question everything you think you know about the world around you. Nah. Learn more about the world around you and look deeper into the stuff you believe is true.

"unlearn" and "question" are nothing more than "learn", "research", and "reexamination" & so on ...focusing on one is focusing on the other..., it is not discredit, but the utlimate goal of knowing the immovable truths both in nature and art..., not the artfully perspective truths of the theorectical, spiritual, and/or mystical world of people and ideas.


Unlearn and question everything you think you know about the world around you, and you will ------ "Learn more about the world around you and look deeper into the stuff you [think you]believe is true."


The Matrix in nothing more than property and your relations and nexus to that property.

Only something that has been shown (or very strongly implied) in the movies, animated episodes, games and comics is part of the Matrix universe. There is nothing at all to suggest that the MWAM theory is true. There's no evidence at all. The MWAM theory is just as plausible as saying that everything that happened to Neo in the movies was a dream, the Matrix doesn't exist at all and the world is normal.

Intell,

I suggest that you spend more time forgetting what is real than studying it. You can not free yourself from the web of the real. It is best to come to the realization that you are not actually in the web at all, but this requires you to lose all sense of self.

Best Wishes.