»The Wachowskis fooled us all«

White_Pawn wrote:

y was the kid so important, hello he could believe in somthing so strongly that it would become real, thats how he was able to do some of the things in the battle and push himsleves to certain limits.

The kid wasnt that important, it could have been any one of the people. They made no refrence to his powers to do wat he did in animatrix. All of the people in zion had a strong belief in wat they were doing or they wouldnt be doin it. There was really nothing much more special about the kid then about any other people in it. ok so he has strong beliefs--so does neo, and morpheus and trinity--all the people in the movie had strong beliefs----it was there beliefs that drove them---the kid wasnt special or important it could have been any of the people in the movie doin wat he did

wats up wit these y is sereph glowin, hello that was the first time that neo saw an unplugged program after he became the one, so of coarse sereph wont look like a human, and i say unplugged because agents are plugged into the machine mainfraim thats y they have the earpeices to hear were to go were people are and were to jump to another person into the matrix that is also plugged in, smith gets unplugged witch is y he gives him the ear piece.

I beg to differ...

I think the 3 movies explained a fair bit. A friend sent me this:

knnknn wrote:

The Wachowskis fooled us in the "badest" sense of the word. Not a single mystery is resolved. What the fork? 1. Is Zion a matrix? Believe it or not this is not explained. Neo: "Tell me how I separted my mind from my body without jacking in. Tell me how I stopped 4 sentinels by thinking it..." Oracle: "The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from...The Source." THIS IS THE STUPID EXPLANATION? This explains why Neo is blind and can see eveything in gold code? This explains his squiddie-bursting powers? This explains how he is in the matrix while not jacked-in? Gimmie-a-breek. Star-Trek-kiddie-crap. 2. Why does Smith say he has seen it before? If everything happened like the last time and Neo was jacked in by the machine god, then Zion _IS_ a matrix which is cycling. 3. The Architect meets the Oracle in the park. Where is the Universe thing? So she is the mother after all? Why did he say please then? 4. Bodies in cocoons. Not explained. 5. Merovingian. Who is he? Not explained. Persephone has a 2-sentence-side-role. 6. The changes of Bane's bleeding face (2 versions from the trailer, 1 more version in the final movie). Not explained. 7. Is Neo a program? Not answered. 8. What's the meaning of all the leather and latex and sunglasses? Not explained. 9. Why is Trinity "3nity"? Not explained. She has a side role (who hasn't?) and dies. 10. Why does Seraph glow? Not explained. NOW to the movie itself: 1) I liked some of the dialogs. Quotable. 2) Smith is good, but sometimes overreacts (bad directors?) 3) The new Oracle is not that bad, but she's bad 4) Niobe is better than before 5) Kid has a side role, as has Zee 6) The Trinity dying scene is too long 7) The fights in Zion are cool msnbc.com... has some true criticism MSNBC wrote: "After Reloaded there was still some question about whether Keanu Reeves’s Neo was The One, but it had become clear that the Wachowski brothers were decidedly mortal." ... But the Wachowskis, for all their conceptual daring and visual flair, don’t have Cameron’s gift for sustaining suspense or for keeping emotions engaged. The Neo-Trinity romance is barely room temperature, and the love story between Zee and Link as well as the implied one between Morpheus and daredevil pilot Niobe are dutiful at best. ... The original "Matrix" was full of dizzying surprises. But it’s turned out that the Wachowskis didn’t have many more tricks up their sleeves. How many times do we want to watch Neo kick the indestructible Agent Smith through a wall? How many times do we want to hear people tell Neo they believe in him?

Ka wrote:

knnknn wrote: Oh, she said in Revolutions "I am the mother of the Matrix". Where? Gosh, who is overinterpreting here, me or you. Didn't Smith call the Oracle "Mom"? According to the transcript i just read he does, so that may mean something.

1) He was singing a bit from just a gigolo
2) Since he took over Sati, he calls the Oracle "mom" now.

The problem with all this is that it's just theories. I don't have a problem with it not being absolutely explicit, but they should have written in so that when someone explains the correct theory and gives the evidence, everyone goes "Oh...I see now." It should be obvious, but not in plain sight.


Sati is not the offspring of the Oracle. Her "parents" are Rama-Kandra and Kamala.

Actually, I think this is one of the rare questions indeed answered. Oracle is the matrix' mother.

This make sense since the Mother is the intuition, the sensitiveness and the father is the rationality, the mathematical precision.

Like a left and a right side of a brain...

All matrix's programs are creation of both dad/mom of the matrix. so is smith and the neo's software.

knnknn wrote:

The Wachowskis fooled us in the "badest" sense of the word. Not a single mystery is resolved. What the fork? 1. Is Zion a matrix? Believe it or not this is not explained. Neo: "Tell me how I separted my mind from my body without jacking in. Tell me how I stopped 4 sentinels by thinking it..." Oracle: "The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from...The Source." THIS IS THE STUPID EXPLANATION? This explains why Neo is blind and can see eveything in gold code? This explains his squiddie-bursting powers? This explains how he is in the matrix while not jacked-in? Gimmie-a-breek. Star-Trek-kiddie-crap. 2. Why does Smith say he has seen it before? If everything happened like the last time and Neo was jacked in by the machine god, then Zion _IS_ a matrix which is cycling. 3. The Architect meets the Oracle in the park. Where is the Universe thing? So she is the mother after all? Why did he say please then? 4. Bodies in cocoons. Not explained. 5. Merovingian. Who is he? Not explained. Persephone has a 2-sentence-side-role. 6. The changes of Bane's bleeding face (2 versions from the trailer, 1 more version in the final movie). Not explained. 7. Is Neo a program? Not answered. 8. What's the meaning of all the leather and latex and sunglasses? Not explained. 9. Why is Trinity "3nity"? Not explained. She has a side role (who hasn't?) and dies. 10. Why does Seraph glow? Not explained.

Ok, look. First, you're not thinking enough. You're asking for too many answers to just be handed to you. Think about things before complaining that they weren't explained. Second, you had a lot of theories about the movie that were wrong, then complained when they weren't addressed. Example: you thought that Zion was part of the Matrix. This wasn't the case, and no where in the series did they talk about Zion being part of the Matrix. Regardless of those facts, you get upset when the movie doesn't talk about it. If they don't talk about it at all, then it ISN'T PART OF THE PLOT! Get that through your brain! Ok, explanations:

1. It explains it perfectly well. The One is connected directly to the source, meaning that he has some control over the machines. However, it has to develop in order for him to use it better. When he used this power the first time to knock out the sentinels, it was so underdeveloped that it knocked him out. Later in the movie, these powers had developed more, and he was able to take out large numbers of sentinels at a time, although at a certain point he couldn't keep at it because his powers were still limited. When he lost his eyes, he was so connected to the machines that he could see the light they're made of. Also, he's not in the Matrix when he's in a coma. He's in a place BETWEEN the matrix and the machine world. You'll notice that when he gets up after seeing the oracle, he has been jacked in. Obviously in order to go see the oracle, he had to be jacked in like he was. Pay more attention next time.

2. Ok, assumptions here. This is one of the few things I don't know for sure, but I believe it's because Smith is, in essence, inevitability, and he believes that it is inevitable that Neo will die. You can't go, "well it must mean this, so the movie sucks!". Find some more theories. Maybe it's because Smith has become the Oracle, I don't know for sure.

3. This is one of of those things you need to think about more. You're asking for the answer for this one to just be handed to you. Come up with some theories for christ sake! Perhaps this is the new world that machines and humans will live in. Maybe this is Heaven. Think about it before bashing it. It's supposed to make you wonder, that's the general idea. And why is everyone so bent on who the mother is? It makes no difference who the mother is. Besides, didn't the architect tell you that the oracle is the mother? I don't understand this one...

4. Bodies in cocoons? What are you talking about? Do you mean the bodies wraped in red in the machine world? Didn't you see the first movie? These are the fields where the machines grow humans. Watch the first movie again. Or what bodies in cocoons are you talking about then if its not those?

5. Another thing you have to think about a little bit. I admit, they could have talked about the Merovingian more, but you need to do some more thinking than you've done, because I've seen tons of theories on who he is and you don't have one. In case you haven't figured it out, this series is about asking you the questions and letting you answer them, not giving you everything you need right there. Give these things more thought and form some theories instead of complaining about how the movie didn't explain everything 100%. Stupid humans...

6. Ok, they changed it for the trailer because it was too bloody to show on TV. Just editing. That's all. No deeper meaning.

7. See? You're forming theories that weren't talked about because they were wrong, then getting upset when they aren't talked about. It's great to form theories, but if the theory's not talked about, then IT'S WRONG! IT'S WRONG! When will you learn that not everything you thought was true actually is true.

8. Probably just cool fashion sense. If there really is a deeper meaning, you have to figure it out on your own, not go complaining to people on the web. Again, that's the purpose of the series.

9. Once again, something that was never talked about, and obviously has no meaning. And once again, if there is a meaning to it, the Wachowskis want you to think about it.

10. Seraph glows because he is a special program! Remember how all the machines glow? Yeah, well Seraph's a special program made for higher purposes, so he glows. Wow.

Good god, it amazes me how much people would figure out if they would think about the movie a bit more. Seriously, people are so stupid.

Check out my other post for more reasons why people who thought Revolutions was bad are stupid.

I agree wholeheartedly with KNNKNN's problems with Revolutions and, as always, I am extremely impressed by his well-constructed proof even when I dont agree with them.

Yet, I don't believe it was the questions that weren't answered that were the downfall of Revolutions and The Matrix Trilogy as a whole. The problem was the questions that were never asked. The W Bros. never challenged the audience with new ideas or situations that could be resolved outside the context of a sitcom. Too much was left undefined and too few concepts were addressed for me to even feel like this was a Matrix movie at all.

For Example:

PROBLEM:
I fully expected Neo to break out of his Machine World-Matrix Limbo quickly, but for it to be overlooked as a source of philosophical development is apalling. I suspect that the progams that move into the Matrix via the Trainman must originate somewhere (The Source perhaps?) and that the Train runs both ways. Yet, the Train as an symbol of transformation was never explored. Where Neo confronts mind-altering concepts and betrayals in M1 and M2, he confronts only easily solvable, trite situations in M3.

SOLUTION:
Neo could easily have demanded that the Merovingian allow him to "ride the Train" back into the source, confronting the audience with the view of the real Machine World. The interaction with Sati and Co. was interesting, but how would Neo deal with being a true outsider with no powers in the Machine World. What does the Machine World look like? Do the programs in it represent themselves with avatars? Are those Avatars human? Could Neo attempt to contact the Machines via this method? Could Smith infect the Machine World via this method? These question would have shocked and interested me, not bored me with clips from the previews.


P.S. I have been reading and studying this forum for a couple of weeks now and I feel that I have a grip on most of the issues. I also feel that this "no questions raised" issue is the heart of our dissatisfaction with M3. If there is any desire for more of my individual issues with the movie in the above format, let me know; I felt it would overburden my general point to discuss other issues.

Im new to this board....which means that my personal opinion might not be taken seriously or it would not be considered true in any way. But here ot goes/

The last two movies were not all that great I will agree. But the brothers did what they did because thats how they felt they saw the story unfold in their eyes.
Sure it was crappy the way they revealed their vision in the last two films, but we have to take in mind that some things are left for us to answer for ourselves.
Maybe they WILL release another movie, maybe they wont. But you have to take into consideration maybe it was part of the brothers, plan, stupid as it was, to leave us with un-answered questions for us to answer the way we see.

Most people expected to see Neo beat the crap out of the machines and retrurn to Zion and live happily ever after with Trinity and Morpheus. But what i didnt like one bit about the movie is how they did not show the aftermath of the "peace'" the machines and humans have. Do the humans in Zion re-surface at all? And how do we exactly know that Neo is dead? His body was carried away and thats it....remember, in the first movie Neo did die....but he also returned. It's all a big knot of questions waiting to be unraverled. And we DESERVE to know.

Perhaps the answers you want knnknn are in a realm the wachowski bros wanted you to come to understand. You have many questions about zion, but you have come to understand the matrix...correct? The movie isn't Zion revolutions. Whenlooking into the matrix I was ignorant but i came to realize that life is unanswered questions; being ignorant to ideas is a weakness in this life, we must learn to think beyond what we understand. Maybe zion is just another part of a cycle where you gain answers to a truth you can never comprehend unless through this cycle (because of our human nature).
Compared to many intelligences in our universe, we could have the brain compacity of an ant...so who says the matrix was created by AI? (I suggest reading 2001: A Space Odyssey if you haven't.) Machines were created to act and think like their creators, they have the (somewhat) same emotions of us: they were rejected by us and thus wanted power over us, they want humanity to accept them and their ideas (just like how a man feels he needs acceptance in his society). AI has many advantages and disadvantages compared to a human brain but in concept cannot exceed their artificial nature (which was created by man).
A matrix could theoretically be created by machine, but then who created reality? God? Well explain to me what intelligence he is. Oh wait, you can't...no one knows, there is only speculations about things we cannot understand.
I think Zion could be called another step. A reality which is now understandable and thus acceptable to many. Perhaps the next step is a reality no one can ever imagine at this point in the process (the "fire code"). Maybe they will plug us into the perfect world, or maybe that was the last step ...and then we realize that it is a process in which the absolute goal is HAPPINESS/NIRVANA. Or maybe the matrix is a movie two brothers thought up on extra time. Maybe what we see everyday is just the product of millions of years of evolution and as humans we feel we must have a purpose and thus turn to a well-thought movie plot.
In my opinion, fuck it. Im going to play my PS2, drink my Doctor Pepper, and watch family guy drunk; it's only my human nature ("to deny our impulse...."). If this world is an illusion, then i will escape and try to stay content in another time.
Feel free to call me insane!