»The Wachowskis fooled us all«

The Wachowskis fooled us in the "badest" sense of the word.

Not a single mystery is resolved.

What the fork?

1. Is Zion a matrix? Believe it or not this is not explained.
Neo: "Tell me how I separted my mind from my body without jacking in. Tell me how I stopped 4 sentinels by thinking it..."
Oracle: "The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from...The Source."

THIS IS THE STUPID EXPLANATION? This explains why Neo is blind and can see eveything in gold code? This explains his squiddie-bursting powers? This explains how he is in the matrix while not jacked-in? Gimmie-a-breek. Star-Trek-kiddie-crap.

2. Why does Smith say he has seen it before? If everything happened like the last time and Neo was jacked in by the machine god, then Zion _IS_ a matrix which is cycling.

3. The Architect meets the Oracle in the park. Where is the Universe thing? So she is the mother after all? Why did he say please then?

4. Bodies in cocoons. Not explained.

5. Merovingian. Who is he? Not explained. Persephone has a 2-sentence-side-role.

6. The changes of Bane's bleeding face (2 versions from the trailer, 1 more version in the final movie). Not explained.

7. Is Neo a program? Not answered.

8. What's the meaning of all the leather and latex and sunglasses? Not explained.

9. Why is Trinity "3nity"? Not explained. She has a side role (who hasn't?) and dies.

10. Why does Seraph glow? Not explained.

NOW to the movie itself:
1) I liked some of the dialogs. Quotable.
2) Smith is good, but sometimes overreacts (bad directors?)
3) The new Oracle is not that bad, but she's bad
4) Niobe is better than before
5) Kid has a side role, as has Zee
6) The Trinity dying scene is too long
7) The fights in Zion are cool

msnbc.com... has some true criticism

MSNBC wrote:

"After Reloaded there was still some question about whether Keanu Reeves’s Neo was The One, but it had become clear that the Wachowski brothers were decidedly mortal." ... But the Wachowskis, for all their conceptual daring and visual flair, don’t have Cameron’s gift for sustaining suspense or for keeping emotions engaged. The Neo-Trinity romance is barely room temperature, and the love story between Zee and Link as well as the implied one between Morpheus and daredevil pilot Niobe are dutiful at best. ... The original "Matrix" was full of dizzying surprises. But it’s turned out that the Wachowskis didn’t have many more tricks up their sleeves. How many times do we want to watch Neo kick the indestructible Agent Smith through a wall? How many times do we want to hear people tell Neo they believe in him?

1) By barely mentioning the possibility in a senctence or two, it was not a part of the plot, and Zion is therefore as real as it can be.

Neo's powers are not explainable from what we know today, so to try to explain it any further would only make it worse.

2) Some things are the same, some things are different. And Smith can see a lot of things after he takes over the Oracle.

3) He said please because she isn't really an oracle. Just like she says please about him. They are like an old married couple.

4) I didn't expect it to be. The brothers are just mortals.

5) The Merovingian and Persephone is probably more featured in The Matrix Online or the next Animatrix...

6) Have no idea what you are talking about.

7) They didn't even ask the question. They always refer to him as human. Except for Tank in M1.

The movie itself:
1) I found it more to the point than Reloaded...
2) I think he is supposed to act excactly like that.
3) She is not as good as the first, but I blame the new shell.
4) Yup.
5) There wasn't time for anything else.
6) There was complete silence in the audience during the whole scene. I think I was perfect. Not understanding she is impaled because he is blind.
7) Veeery cool.

emp wrote:

1) By barely mentioning the possibility in a senctence or two, it was not a part of the plot, and Zion is therefore as real as it can be.

Good argument. But explaining his powers with just 1 stupid sentence sucks more. Zion is real? Fine with me. Zion is fake? Fine with me. But Neo crunching the sentinels because he has a connection with the source? Is this Batman opening a Fort Knox safe from within with an ear plug? Is this the new way to fool the audience?

emp wrote:

Neo's powers are not explainable from what we know today, so to try to explain it any further would only make it worse.

I think they made it worse by not explaining it further. This is sooo lame: Producing one of the biggest cliffhangers in movie history (Neo stops incoming squids), showing him waking up in the matrix although not jacked in... and then this lame explanation.

emp wrote:

Smith can see a lot of things after he takes over the Oracle.

I don't know, his speeches about "it's happening exactly as before" are before the take-over. Need the transcript.

emp wrote:

He said please because she isn't really an oracle. Just like she says please about him. They are like an old married couple.

I agree that this is one possible explanation as I have always pointed out on my site. But Revolutions resolved it as if they had never been any doubt about it. Either the Wachowskis suck or they implemented the "Please" to ignite meaningless discussions.

emp wrote:

6) Have no idea what you are talking about.

Just check

So why did they make only a 128 minutes movie?

Ok, for number 1 the two lines that you quoted explain everything. The oracle says that neo's power is derived from the source, but you cant simply think it is the machine mainframe. A great deal of the movie is about eastern philosophy, and the idea of the source that the oracle refers to is that of the Atman, or universal soul, that you find in Buddahism(sp?). This would explain tha Neo has become one not only with himself but with reality in general, that he now understands how reality works, and thus is able to manipulate it in the real world as well. Im sure if there is someone out there who is more familiar with the idea of atman and the universal soul could explain it much better, since i really dont know the ins and outs, but im pretty sure thats what the wachowski's were trying to say.

Lame, lamer... Lamest...
Dark, darker... Darko!

I think the Wachowski's saw how cool a film Donnie Darko was and after the imense Matrix 1 wanted to make two films that left as many questions unanswered as DD. The problem was they succeded.

Jagr95795 wrote:

Ok, for number 1 the two lines that you quoted explain everything.

Just check out the hundreds of posts dealing with this issue.

I knew I'd come in here to see some folks in a tizzy over the fact that their pet theory was a wash. Face it folks ... at least from what we know now, the MwW theory is garbage. Of course, I've been trying to tell some of you that for a while, but I digress.

I was disappointed in the final fight scene, and was somewhat miffed that the Merovingian and Persephone got such short shrift.

But thank GOD the Wachowskis had the good sense not to foist any undue significance on the Kid. If he'd been made into something more substantial, I would have just puked.

I was very upset at Trinity's death. It seemed rather pointless, in a series of movies where everything had a purpose.

I was also somewhat disappointed that the movie raised more questions than it answered. But I intend to see it again to see if perhaps I just didnt' catch everything the first time.

My intelligence has been insulted.

To our surprise, Revolutions didn't answer anything.

This was excusable in Reloaded, as it was considered a set-up for the denouement, but in a movie like Revolutions, you need more than just badass fight sequences.

(Speaking of which, did anyone see a single bullet-time shot? Because I didn't.)

HOWEVER...

The Wachowski's are going somewhere with this. There are many open ends, yes, but to introduce so many seemingly random plot devices and not hole them up wouldn't be toying with the audience, it would be irresponsible filmmaking. My guess is the W brothers have the explanations. The question is, will they reveal anything through further media formats?

It is true, the games are planned, but I doubt an MMORPG like Matrix Online will offer any insight into all of this. The producers say they want to make more movies, but the actors are done (but with Neo and Trinity dead, who cares to see another?)

Ultimately, perhaps the W bros. saw the franchise possibilities and left it open for more crap that we have to buy. Despite what they say about The Matrix being a story fully told through multiple formats, what has anyone gotten out of the Animatrix? How about Enter the Matrix? I challenge anyone reading this post to find a SINGLE time where producer Joel Silver talked about something else other than "Matrix is really cool, here's what you have to buy to make it cooler." They crammed this crap down our throats, making us believe the entire time it was going to help our understanding of the movies.

Well I'm still lost.

When Revolutions comes out on DVD, there won't be any Architect-like scenes to dissect. The only thing we'll be scrutinizing is how fake the slow-motion shot of Neo's computer fist slamming into an unrealistically-rubbery Smith computer face looks.

Goddamn you, Wachowskis.

Anger....
This is the sensation they want us to feel... Hell, they did!
This is the end that all the common people would think.
But there's another end, there must be another end...
There's something behind it. This isn't the end. At least the true ending.
If it was just that, I will go crazy....

A mere love story.
A mere good wins against bad and the sun shines...ready to buy the comics?

Am I the only who feels like they cut out a bunch of scenes to try to make it closer to 2 hours?

I thought we'd get a lot more Merovingian & Persephone... and even the Whitey Twins!

On a different topic, it took a while for me to warm up to the new Oracle... she didn't have the same effect. She seemed a bit younger, and definitely not as wise. She was OK... but nothing more. I'm assuming the other actress passed away...?

was when Smith talks about the meaning of life he doesn't reveal what
the meaning is .

Yeah she did.

@KingTutSJP. I could not state it better. I agree to each of your points.

knnknn wrote:

@KingTutSJP. I could not state it better. I agree to each of your points.

same here. I totaly agree.


If this is the true end of the matrix trilogy , I will personally go visit the Wachowskis brothers

Gee, it's like deja vu all over again, I keep on asking people and I don't get a real answer.

What questions do you believe the brothers posed? What answers to these questions that you believe they posed are missing.

As for the Matrix w Matrix question that everyone seems to think is posed, there's only these key lines to remember?

Neo: Is this real?
Morpheus: What is real? If real is what you can taste, feel, etc. then real is just electrical/chemical signals to your brain.

The question of a matrix within a matrix would be something the brothers would never pose, thus, they explain it and answer with a different question and answer in Neo's above mentioned question to Morpheus. In addition the nature of Zion and the matrix could be explained easily, they both are and are not. To anyone within the power plants the idea of Zion would be dismissed as being totally nuts, and to the people of Zion it has to be real lest they have no purpose, as simply jumping from reality to reality would have no meaning as each time it would express the concept that reality is only a human idea and that anything "above" it is unreachable and more than likely undesirable to us in our current states.

Morpheus apparent lack of screentime should be easily understandable, he identified with himself having the purpose of finding and bringing about the one, which he did. Once Neo is set in action there's nothing more that he can do that any other rebel, so he does just that he is simply set back in the role of just a rebel, albeit with a leadership position.

The mother of the matrix, in my other post I answered this but I'll say it again. The parallel that the oracle draws between herself and the architect is obviously of the same nature that the architect drew in Reloaded.

Architect "If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be it's mother"

Oracle "He is here to balance the equation, I am here to unbalance the equation"

If that doesn't spell it out for you then maybe the last scene where they deja vu/restore the structure of the matrix and meet in front of the sunset will. Obviously Smith taking over the oracles avatar didn't axe her. And It would've been folly to, why would the machines be stupid enough to allow the MOTHER of the matrix to have such a security flaw whereby any other AI/PROGRAM could get killed, go crazy, and end up completely taking over another program.

I don't mean to sound rude when I say any of this I've just said it so many times in the past 10 hours lol. I think what I'm basically trying to say is that with the story they started in the first movie couldn't have been REALLY explained any other way, as there is no way to express higher levels of reality without a reference point, and upon seeing that point, all things below it become irellevant. One more quote that I think was probably important

Trinity: The matrix cannot tell you who you are

Thus I just now kind of realise that the above could also be another point they tried to make and thus not ask the MWM question. However, the brothers could come out one day and say that "this is what the movie is about" and it would seem to prove me wrong. However (I know this is getting long winded lol) Even though they created it, unless they change the script or add in scenes, what they said, they said, and it poses no more and no lest questions than what they finalized it as.

Quote:

A mere good wins against bad and the sun shines...ready to buy the comics?

Ammmm is this everyone elses impression of the ending? I didnt interpret it this way at all. The machines still rule the earth above ground and the skys are still black. The humans still live in isolation in a refugee area in the middle of the Earth. The sun only shines in the Matrix, however when Trinity and Neo go above the atmosphere they see the sun (smbololic of human control or true freedom for the resistance) to the reality of the scorched blackend Earth, corrupted by the machines. So in the end the machines are in full control with a uneasy peace with the humans whom they can squash at any time. The only one who wins is the interests of the third party the programs in the Matrix. They apprear to have been "freed" by the architech and the sun shines only in their fake world. Neo is dead, Thirnity is dead, and the humans are forced in live in refugee Zion in the center of the earth... Ever notice how their cloths always look all worn and ripped when they are in Zion? Even Neo who is someone important, isnt privy to decent clothing, however once they enter the matrix, everyone's a fashion designer. Love to hear what you guys think! I was TOTALLY dissapointed with the ending, and saw it as a victory for the machines.

Their was a peace made between the robots and humans. I wonder how you see it as a robot victory? They didn't crush Zion did they? They lost that fight. Are you saying losing a fight is a victory. Also the survivors will be freed. Hmm deffintly not a point for the robots.

It seems to me that just about everyone is forgetting something rather important to the end of this. In the Animatrix, the machines wanted desperately to get along with man. They made several attempts to do so, but were rejected so they lashed out. With Neo coming to 01, it is possible that the machines now realize that man is READY to make peace with the machines and therefore they can live in harmony. It is no longer man seeing themselves as the creator. Neo said it best when he said, "So we need the machines and they need us."

Its just another revolution.

At the end The architect agrees to let let those who want to be freed out of the matrix. This doesnt refer to just setting humanity free! I simlpy refers to giving humans a "choice".

Another cycle of peace / war / peace - reflecting in a philosophical sense the balance of love / hate - and all those other "words".

If it were a happy ending the film would have been called REVOLUTION not REVOLUTIONS.

Well, my interest was piqued by the divisions among the machines. The more humanised, love and freedom machines are oppressed by the logicians. There is certainly a possible machine civil war in the offing and, by keeping the matrix, the humans have saved the machines from social unrest. The next generation of free born programmes will, one day, no doubt, be the revolutionary heroes.

Militarily, of course, the machines win hands down. He who can destroy a thing controls that thing. Culturally, however, it is a human victory and i like that.

knnknn wrote:

Not a single mystery is resolved.

Well, maybe thats a good thing. It means either the theories went way beyond what the scope of the movie was, or that there is the possiblity some of the concepts behind unanswered questions, might be explained by more animated videos, games and comics. It wasnt necessary for the average movie goer to explain it all, and we the geeks can dig into it in the future maybe

knnknn wrote:

1. Is Zion a matrix? Believe it or not this is not explained. Neo: "Tell me how I separted my mind from my body without jacking in. Tell me how I stopped 4 sentinels by thinking it..." Oracle: "The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from...The Source." THIS IS THE STUPID EXPLANATION? This explains why Neo is blind and can see eveything in gold code? This explains his squiddie-bursting powers? This explains how he is in the matrix while not jacked-in? Gimmie-a-breek. Star-Trek-kiddie-crap.

Imagine a phone or a computer that uses the internet or telephone system. Suppose that a number of devices are using the exact same server- causing it to work harder and thus draw more power. Suppose someone was a good enough hack to use his computer to not only hack the server, but also to affect the power company in some way by manipulating this situation. In a similar way, because Neo was split- he was able to hack through the matrix's code to the source actually responsible for running the matrix and use that connection to hack and overload the sentinels. It happened so fluidly he didnt even realize what or how he was doing it. If you can accept that explanation, the Oracle's explanation is a very concise summary.

The gold thing- I dont know. But it appeared to me that he wasnt seeing code anymore- he was reading energy or power that was from the machine world. There werent any tiny streaming code lines or anything though.

knnknn wrote:

2. Why does Smith say he has seen it before? If everything happened like the last time and Neo was jacked in by the machine god, then Zion _IS_ a matrix which is cycling.

Everything happened as before up until Neo chose the left door. In other words all the previous ones had returned, added in the anomaly, balancing the equation and rebooting the system.
You might be misinterpreting the same scene I did, but my wife caught it and corrected me: when Neo and Smith fight at the end, it isnt Smith that says that whole "this isnt how its supposed to happen... now I say 'everything that has a beginning etc," it was the Oracle sort of breaking through Smith for a second. Thats why Smith was like "what was that? That wasnt me!" So in that scene he isnt saying that scene ever happened before, it was the Oracle trying to get him to understand how to kill Smith.

knnknn wrote:

3. The Architect meets the Oracle in the park. Where is the Universe thing? So she is the mother after all? Why did he say please then?

He said "please" because Neo reverently refered to her as the Oracle. He was like oh please, she's just a lesser program

knnknn wrote:

4. Bodies in cocoons. Not explained. 5. Merovingian. Who is he? Not explained. Persephone has a 2-sentence-side-role. 6. The changes of Bane's bleeding face (2 versions from the trailer, 1 more version in the final movie). Not explained. 7. Is Neo a program? Not answered. 8. What's the meaning of all the leather and latex and sunglasses? Not explained. 9. Why is Trinity "3nity"? Not explained. She has a side role (who hasn't?) and dies. 10. Why does Seraph glow? Not explained.

Here is a bunch of stuff that can be explored ad naseum either by theorizing and connecting philosphical references, what bits of history we know etc. It also opens the possiblity for animated back stories, comics etc that would be able to continue going on and explaining some things and not others so that a very rich universe continues for fans to explore. Look at star wars and all the supplemental books they wrote for that, and think how much cooler books about stories on the matrix could be- revealing somethings new and questioning some things you might have thought you knew. AND- audiences who arent entrallsed with the whole universe gwt a movie that has the story resolved etc.

I am really glad a forum like this exists. This is a great forum. Anyway, I was expecting a lot more. I was expecting all questions to be answered as all of you did. Personally, I think the Matrix inside the Matrix thing is a load of BS. The Matrix trilogy is simply a story with all bibles of all religions combined just in a future setting. This is definitly going to be tought in literature as more people find out what is going on. I am angry that most was not answered. They're hopefully/better be a surpise movie or something of that sorts on the way.

Thanks,
Chris Garson

Their done with the matrix movies. Answer your own questions

The Architect wrote:

Quote:

The Wachowskis fooled us in the "badest" sense of the word.

I really think that the Brothers have opened our minds, think about it.
Think about the discussions we have had here and tell me that we haven't learned or imagined anything. My head is still full of ideas, I thank the Brothers for enlightening me to a new way of thinking.
I LOVE IT